I think I speak for everyone when I say about the finale HOLY FUCKING SHIT! WHAT? HUH? WHO? AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Okay, that said, I loved it. Although Sayid deserved better than getting shot by that hermit dude from "Real Genius."

Was that the series finale, or just a season finale? If it's the former I'll have to check out what happened (I don't follow the show, but still, ya know?)

Season finale, CTrees. One season to go.

I loved finding out that Locke was not Locke. I didn't see that coming at all.

I'm glad Lazlo from Real Genius shot Sayid. In my opinion, he had it coming.

I was frustrated by any number of things...chief of which will always be what they've done to Jack. But, there are certain things playing out here that I've been curious about since season one. Like all the black and white imagery. I'm sure this will boil down to Jacob v. Neckbeard.

One thing I did notice about Jacob in the flashbacks is that while he appeared to be helping all of our civilization deprived citizens, he really didn't. Kate didn't learn the consequences of stealing, James was given the means to write his letter and keep vengeance in his heart for years...He gave Jack junk food that will possibly clog his arteries. Jacob was just up to no good that appeared to be benevolence.

Just like the island has done. Since season one, Locke has been saying that the island gives you what you need...not necessarily what you want. I think Jacob did that exact thing in the episode last night.

Or maybe, the show confused my so fuckin' bad last night that I can barely remember my own name. One of those things.

OK. Jacob and the other dude at the beginning are the gods of the magic island (the statue represents them). Gods like Thor and Loki who hate each other. But they have an agreement or can't physically hurt each other. So Jacob brings people to the island as sort of a game and setting all the events into motion. The loop hole was that the other god had to convince someone else to do the killing and he took the form of Locke to do so. But Jacob had a hand in bringing a lot of our cast to the island so has a plan to get out of the stabbing (time travel and nuclear bombs anyone?) The Others are just poeple who like to live on the island for the magical benefits and Dharma just wants to study it. The smoke monster is just a god fart (where was that thing anyway?). Has the past or future been changed? Probably but I can't wait to see. Those are my theories.

ManWithPez-
Neckbeard = laughs.

I was pissed once it was all over.

Syaid deserved to go out better then Shannon did, now that Juliet is gone I guess we have no records that season 2 ever happened and with her dead we get to go back to the same pissed off Saywer that had grown to a better character, all destroyed.

The Jacob thing was awesome, so many questions that are destroyed at the end because of Emo Ben (even if the statement "What about you" was epic) we don't get to learn about what really is going on. We will get a story told to us in a year by fake Locke.

The whole shapshifter immortal thing is slightly stupid, why not tell us what the loop hole is and why he wanted it, I mean I get that Jacob can make people live forever and that the fake Locke/ guy from the start of the show. Wanted out or at least revenge for making him immortal. But seriously it was not a season finale it was a slow kick to the baby making parts delivered by a boot with thumb tacks attached to it.

The writers I don't think know where they are going and I fear next season is going to be a jumbled mess. I will watch it and I will enjoy it but I know I am going to feel violated at the end like I do every other time a season of Lost ends.

If it wasn't for Star Trek I would find J.J and slap him like he owed me money.

I loved the finale; the revelation of what was in the box freaked me out totally. But I did not love how Kate, Sawyer and Juliet flip-flopped all over the place regarding detonating Jughead. Unbelievabe, soapy and out of character. Sawyer grew so much this season, then became totally selfish and let Juliet make up his mind for him. Kate was swayed too easily to Jack's side. Jack's motivations remained insensible. And Jin didn't even raise his voice to complain that wiping out the current timeline would also wipe out his daughter's existence? Seriously. The plot has been overwhelming the characters too much of late.

Locke seems to have died a sad, broken man who was being manipulated the whole time by Jacob's nemesis, who seems to be related to or actually is the Smoke Monster. Something about taking on Locke's form must be different than any of the other people he has appeared as, though. I suspect the real Locke's essence or soul is still in there. It definitely seemed like the real Locke much of that time at the Ajira 316 beach, and not just an impersonator.

I don't think Jack & Co. succeeded in stopping 815 from ever crashing, mainly because it wouldn't leave much of a show. I think it's more likely that they just caused (or contributed to) the Incident that had always happened, and were instead timeflashed to where they belonged in the present. Although, that doesn't explain the Lost logo switching colors.

I think Jack ended up doing what happened all along, as Miles pointed out after it was too late. And yeah, I agree there was some flip-flopping done on some of the characters' parts that felt rushed.

I saw the Locke-in-the-box coming. I guess I've figured out how the writers think, cause I knew it would give the biggest shock. Seems lame though that Locke is really dead, then, and his whole story arc over 5 seasons was for nothing. I'm guessing the evil-twin Locke (shouldn't he be wearing a goatee?) will be around as the bad guy next season.

Still, all-in-all I enjoyed the finale, but kept muttering "you assholes" as the credits rolled, for stopping there and making us wait until January.

Assholes.

Last night was mind blowing for sure. However, I do not think Sayid is dead there is no way they would send him off like that. Also, that fade to white has got to mean something I am sure the creators of the show did not just do that. What it means though I have no idea. Finally, Jack and Sawyer fighting was a long time coming and I thought the most satisfying part of the episode. Overall great TV.

Anyone else think that it is possible that the imposter Locke was Whitmore? And that when Jacob said you found a loophole...he was talking about Whitmore finding a way back onto the island, since he has been trying to get back since he left?

I know this is unrelated, but how does this box memory work? Don't you need a password? Or could anybody decide to be me now? And if they could, who would really want to?

If you want a hint at where the plot is going read the myth of Osiris the Dying God. The black player and the underground temple both remind me of Set. He is Osiris' brother who murders him and chops him into pieces. Osiris is reborn when his mother-wife Isis finds the pieces of his body and reassembles it. He is reborn as a child and symbolizes eternal life, etc.

The way this finale (and story arc climax) echoes the pilot episode makes me think the writers were planning to do a Matrix-style update of an ancient mythological story: how a cosmic battle between two Players prevents the universe from ultimate destruction.

For the science folks out there, that is the meaning of the Equation (Hurley's numbers), too; it represents a real-world formula for calculating the birth, growth, and collapse of human civilization. Faraday's calculations are the solution to that equation.

@Thomas

I don't think it is Widmore, just because of the man at the start of the show saying how much he wants to kill Jacob and that he needs to find a loophole.

Also they did not change anything with the nuke I am sure that was supposed to happen to bring them there. Because I mean if the nuke stopped them from every being there, how would they have been able to be there to plant the nuke, it is a paradox. Thats why I hate time travel. I hate it a lot.

I still think the ending blew but I am getting over it, thought it was great TV but just makes me baby punching mad

I became worried about Sayid the moment he put on a Dharma jumpsuit with the name "Horace" on it. Then he got in a VW van. When Hurley finds the van in an earlier season, there is a skeleton wearing this same jumpsuit in it. Coincidence? On this show? Not likely. Could be a red herring though I guess. I'm not sure I can wait until next year to see where this is going.

Oh, no! Skeletor might have been Sayid? Please, no!

Cobra Commander; the van Hurley found all those seasons ago belonged to Ben's dad. The jumpsuit said "Roger Workman" and a later flashback revealed that Ben was in the van with his dad when the old man was gassed by the others

I'm pretty sure that body Hurley found in the Dharma van a couple seasons ago was Roger Linus, Ben's dad. So Sayid still has a shot at being alive. There was that one episode later on that showed a flashback with Ben killing Roger in that van.

"Also, that fade to white has got to mean something I am sure the creators of the show did not just do that."

ROLF. No, really. ROLF.

So was it a three hour tour?

When Hurley finds the van, it's Roger Linus's body in there (with "Roger Workman" on his jumpsuit). Horace's body and jumpsuit are in the big Dharma mass grave.

I really liked this episode. The main storyline got to a great cliffhanger. I had expected they would stop with the bomb going off, so the question whether the timeline is changed or not remains.
I always suspected (hoped) the final season would shed more light on the statue and the black rock time of the island, so I thought it was great that they actually showed Jacob, and basically set up a great storyline to end the series with.

I also liked the huge importance of black and white in this episode, especially the inverted 'lost' at the end. White is black and black is white, good is evil and so forth. So we were rooting for the bad guy (Locke), and the Ilana and Bram's people were actually pretty good (In regards to those guys, I'm guessing they're a secret cult that has been passed down from generation to generation, all hoping to someday go to the island/being permitted by Jacob to go to the island).

I am a huge fan of the show but I have to say that I thought last night was one of the weaker episodes of the whole season. There was very little new information doled out until the very end. I think that Locke being an imposter was pretty clearly hinted at from the moment he appeared alive on the beach--the episode was titled "Dead is Dead," Ben and Richard clearly did not believe that even the island can raise the dead, etc.

As for what will happen next season, I would not assume that anyone at all is definitely dead. On the other hand they might all be dead. It would be kinda stupid if a detonating nuclear core killed just Juliet and left everyone else alive. I think that they did in fact reset things, but that it won't really have much of an effect. Think about the significance of the Jacob-centric flashbacks. They seem to clearly imply that it was Jacob who brought everyone to the island, and not some mere coincidence that Desmond failed to push the button just as they were passing over.

Things will be reset, but everything that already happened will still be important because as Jacob said, "things only end once, everything before that is progress." Jacob is trying to accomplish something, and no matter what happens we are always moving closer to the ultimate conclusion, so nothing is ever meaningless. This time they will end up on the island, just in a different context.

Also, I agree with HerBN and others about the cool significance of black vs. white and so on. To me that was the one really interesting and unexpected revelation in this episode, that "the island" itself is split in two--I kept thinking of it as Ying and Yang--there is no good and bad, just opposing forces that must be balanced.

Does anyone else think that Richard (Ricardos) was on the Black Rock, and that's how he got to the island?

If so, Jacob made him immortal/ageless in the 1800s, and Richard is most definitely a slave driver. Does that make him a good guy or a bad guy?

@ Kevin

yesterday you agreed with me about Michael. Today, I agree with everything you posted.

I agree Locke's essence is probably in there somewhere. I have a feeling, that him taking back his full essence will be the saving of the island. It will be like when Neo and Agent Smith combined at the end of the Matrix trilogy, the joining of Yin and Yan, in Lost's case this is Jacob and his enemy.

The plot this year really was crazy, but when you introduce time travel, I guess that is what happens. It seemed Miles was the only one who have actual logical thoughts about what was going on and what the consequences of their actions were in 1977.

The writers said that fans should know how Season 6 is going to play out based on this finale. Maybe I need to watch the finale again because I'm as confused as ever.

While I'm very bitter we got "hatched" last night — in that we know what the big finish was going to be, and they offered nothing past that instant — I admit I'm mostly bitter because the show is so awesome. Overall, it's a good problem to have.

What I want to know is how the Jacob/Loophole battle plays into (or doesn't) the Ben/Widmore/Eloise battle. Are all those three just working for Jacob? Has Loophole gotten a hold of one or more of them? Did Jacob genuinely want to die?? (Remember, someone in that cabin said "help me" to Locke: was it Jacob hoping to die, or Loophole wanting help to kill Jacob?)

I think that quote "things only end once, everything before that is progress" is the key one.

Its just a pity with Lost you can never tell when the end actually is. Although next season I do see them back in the present and having a tussle with the new bad fake-Locke.

One thing I would be interested in know is what Jacobs plans were, with the lists and meeting the 815 survivors off island in the lead up to everything.

All I can say is that Season 6 should be some good watching!

I thought the episode was rather weak. My wife called Locke's body in the box early on, and I had already called that they're probably going to cause themselves to land there with the nuclear blast, not stop it (and I also think the blast is the reason the statue was destroyed).

Also, apparently what Richard said was Latin and meant "He who will protect us all."

What bothers me most about time travel plots is this: If you assume that time can in fact be altered, and thus the fabric of reality is mutable, then that would only still mean that if you did somehow travel back in time, you still CAN'T CHANGE ANYTHING!

Follow my logic on this assuming Jack's theory was right: Oceanic 815 crashes on the island. Shit happens. Oceanic 815 passengers end up back in 1977. They change things so that Oceanic 815 never will crash on the island, warping the fabric of reality and time flow.

BUT!...

By doing so, time and the universe attempt to move forward along this new path and the fabric of reality attempts to resettle as it were. Going forward, that means because Oceanic 815 never crashes on the island, the passengers are no longer there in the 21st century to be warped back to 1977 to change things in the first place.

Thus, by changing the future, they've now stopped themselves from changing the past by sucking themselves out of the 1977 history, and the universe then resets to default with the time line unchanged and Oceanic 815 again crashes on the island because nothing changed.

Sure, you can make up some rule that somehow they could still be there to change the past without ever being on the island in the future, but if the whole concept is that reality is mutable, it seems silly to suggest that those changes would only go forward without the consequences also looping back (that they could be there to change the past without ever having been in the island on the future).

So the way I see it:

1. Either you can't change time.

2. You can change time, but if you do it means you won't change time because then you won't be there to come back and change time, meaning you effectively can't change time.

3. You change time but it creates a pardox which destroys the universe and reality, or a loop where you change time, therefore time isn't changed, which means you go back to default, which means then you are there to change time again, and it keeps happening.

As someone who has never watched an episode of Lost, Dollhouse, or the new Battlestar, and is looking to pick up a new show when I finish going through How I Met Your Mother, what would you fine fellow freaks and geeks suggest , now that BSG and Lost are done and can be looked at as whole series, and Doolhouse is almost certainly done as well?

Wow, that question didn't look as long in my head. Also, I've made it this far like this, because North Carolina has an unsuprisingly small amount of nerds, so I don't get into much discussion about this stuff.

Yes, Stephen, definitely think Richard was on the Black Rock. Does that make him good or evil is a good question I think because it is all about context, which plays into the ongoing "we're the good guys" motif. You can do good things while pursuing evil ends, and vice versa. Richard might be a good man at heart but he did some bad things because that was how things worked in his time and place.

RockCity:
Lost still has one more season to go, and Dollhouse, apparently, still has a shot at being picked up for a second season, from what I've read. So, um, go with BSG?

I kept swearing at my television when the show ended last night, cursing the thought of waiting one more year for the series finale. I was surprised when Juliet finally did get Jughead to go all ka-blooey, and trying to think through the paradox it would create made my head hurt so much I went back to focusing on simpler things, like quantum physics.

Also, I was expecting more of a teaser for next season than what we got last night, so I'm a bit disappointed. An eye opened? So, what, we're back to the "this is all someone else's dream" theory?

Okay, a couple of things. I posted most of this over at the USA Today Pop Candy blog, but it bears repeating. So I'm going to break this over three posts.

POST 1:
My wife pointed out to me that Jacob and Neckbeard are having nearly the identical conversation that God and Satan have at the beginning of the Old Testament book of Job. Satan (Neckbeard) wonders why God (Jacob) allows man to exist (come to the island) when all they do is lie, cheat, steal, murder and become corrupted. God says, we'll see, we'll see. Satan says, I'll prove it, and then I'll kill you.

Something to think about.

Oh, doy, of course Richard was on the Black Rock. We should have known this because he was building that ship in a bottle last episode, and the ship looked a lot like the Black Rock.

And when Kid Ben meets long-haired hippy Richard in the jungle, he is dressed kind of like a pirate.

I'm now going back to look for Black Rock clues.

POST 2:

Jacob vists seven people, and he not only touches each of them, but he also gives each of them something:

Kate: A lunchbox
Sawyer: A pen
Locke: Healing
Sun & Jin: A blessing
Jack: An Apollo bar
Hurley: A guitar case

However, there is an additional flashback: Juliet's. Jacob does not visit Juliet (or does he?), and he does not give her anything (or does he?).

Rob

the more I think about it I am thinking that Loophole was trapped in the cabin. The circle of ask could have been used as a magic binding device, circles are very powerful in magic and could have been made to hold loophole in the cabin. I can see Widmore and his group being the ones that helped trap him in there. And at the end of the episode when jacob said the're coming he could be talking about jack and co that are going to do it all over again.

Now to add on the that theory, who got Locke to leave the island? Loophole and the Ghost of Jacks dad, I think Jacks Dad works with loophole and his goal was to get them to let him out of his prison (Hurley or Locke cleared the ash, I think) so he was able to shapeshift to be fake locke when the new group crashed. Jacks Dad is also going to be a foil if the 6 are the new champions that can re-trap the devil.

Also the statue itself is important I think, it is Taweret the egyptian god(dess)of protection and childbirth who other half/husband is Apep demon of darkness and disorder.

So that might be important, or I might be looking to much into it

POST 3:

This one is stretching a little bit, but I think it's kind of important. There are seven flashbacks in the episode (not including the conversation between Jacob & Neckbeard), and they each correspond to one of the seven deadly sins:

Jack: Pride
Kate: Greed
Sawyer: Wrath
Hurley: Gluttony

The above four are easy. The last three are harder to qualify:

Sun & Jin: Lust
Juliet: Despair
Locke: Sloth

My guess is that next season is going to start with a fake out. The screen will start out white and fade in on Flight 815 landing and all the Losties getting off as if everything has been reset. We'll follow the characters bumping into one another and acting like strangers. Then after about 10 minutes of this to try and convince us that they reset everything, they'll be a jump cut to Jack waking up back on the island after the nuke goes off. The flash seens next season will be of the characters lives had they not landed on the island, Jack at his fathers funeral, Kate at her trial, Locke as a miserable office worker; blowing up the bomb wouldn't reset everything but it would probobly screw up time, creating parralel time lines. Everything on the island goes to shit, time is non-existant there and are characters are thrown together for the final battle between Jacob (proboly not that easy to kill) and Beach guy.

Okay. So I think we all know that Loophole (I refuse to call him Neckbeard, because the actor kicked too much ass in Deadwood) is teamed (or is) the smoke monster, while Jacob is the statue dude.

But if Loophole was trapped in the cabin — as seems to be — what's his deal with the Monster. What's his plan? How is he determined who is worth judging and saving and killing?

Also I think the whole thing with Jacob going back and visiting the characters at certain moments in thier life was him setting up a butterfly effect that would lead to them coming to the island. The fact that he didn't go to Juliet (as far as we know) might mean that she wasn't meant to be there, possibly making her able to screw up the timeline.

Rob, re:who the monster kills:
I think that there is a good chance it is not really about value judgements, but more about the fact that team Loophole/Monster has its own agenda. Both halves of the island manipulate people into doing what they want, but Jacob is more tolerant of free choice while team monster just wants what it wants. I think it killed Eko not because he was bad, but because he refused to become submissive before the smoke monster. The monster couldn't manipulate him, so it killed him in anger.

Khip, I think what Damon said in the Lost podcast is that fans should be able to work out what Lost is really about after seeing the Season 5 finale AND the Season 6 premiere.

I can imagine that being the case, since after the next episode we should know where the Losties who were in 1970s ended up, if they changed time, where things are going with Locke, and maybe even the indetity the "they" Jacob referred to as being on their way.

I didn't get that the island could bring Locke back to life being such a big deal (realizing now that it aparently did't). I mean it's a time traveling moving island with a smoke monster and crazy electrimagnetic events that heals people and can make them immortal or teleport them. Didn't seem like a huge reach to me.

SammyC:

That would explain why the monster didn't kill Locke in Season 1, when Locke stared it down while hunting boars. Maybe Locke had a little conversation with smoky, and made a deal way back then? Like, Locke will do whatever the "island" asks, though Locke doesn't know that smoky is the evil part of the island and Jacob is the good part of the island; he just does whatever any part of the island asks of him.

And if it was Loophole in the cabin and not Jacob (which could be, because the brief image of cabin guy showed facial hair that was thicker than Jacob's eternal stubble), then his "help me" whisper could mean that Jacob trapped Loophole in the cabin, and Locke freed him, thus further allying himself with Loophole/smoky.

I just want to clarify something:

Mr. Eko was killed off because Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje wanted out of his contract. Eko's storyline in the show was cut considerably short because of that. The producers have even said as much on their podcast.

Random Thoughts and Responses:

1) Two basic theories of Time Travel
a) You can't do it (paradoxes ensue) (like in the movie Millennium.
b) You can do it, but each time you travel back in time and alter anything you create a divergent timeline aka alternate universe (aka Donnie Darko).

2) Juliet can die when the others don't because her body was crushed when she was pulled down a huge hole in the earth by powerful magnetic forces that then crushed her with lots of heavy metal.

3) The frame long image of the guy in the cabin seemed older than Jacob to me... but I could be wrong. Both Jacob and Neckbeard/Loophole seem to have a week or so's worth of growth, so that is no indication. I think the freeze frame in the cabin character could be either.

4) Ben could easily have learned about the donkey wheel from anyone, never having seen Jacob doesn't affect this. Locked learned how from Christian.

5) Jacob dead? Who knows. No one seems to ever be "really" dead on the Island... we have no instances of immortal characters (aka Richard) being murdered.

6) Up til now my basic assumption has been that each of the main character survivors of Oceanic 815 (plus Desmond) were drawn to the Island to fulfill a destiny laid out for them their whole lives. I am now beginning to ponder the possibility that the Destiny came first and their whole lives have been a series of manipulated events to ensure that they are lead to that destiny.

7) Sayid will not die. The lady viewers love him too much.

8) The writers DEFINITELY KNOW WHERE THEY ARE GOING.

9) There has definitely been a yin/yang gnostic dualism developing for some time.

10) The end of the world does seem to be the culmination of events here... or at least the end of the Island and thus the end for Jacop & Loophole/Neckbeard.

Intriguing questions that remain for me:

- Where the EFF is Claire?
- Who the EFF is Dexter Bloody Stratton?(thank god that ring appeared again!)
- I would really like to know how many bloody toes each and every bloody character has!

Strict: I totally see what you are saying. By itself the idea of bringing someone back to life on the island wouldn't be that crazy. Except that they have gone out of their way in multiple episodes to show that even the people most familiar with the ways of the island found it very surprising, so therefore the idea that Locke had been resurrected was clearly suspect, perhaps not impossible, but not to be trusted.

Stephen: I agree on all that.

Mr. Wesley: I know all that, but that doesn't mean that Eko's storyline is invalid, just cut short. I'm sure they thought about how to kill him off and basically kept it consistent with what their original plan had been.

Dexter Stratton? Can you give some background OJ? I totally don't remember him, but obviously I remember the ring from last night.

As for time travel theories, here is my personal one: Like Farraday mentioned, time is like a river. Rivers flow downhill. Nothing can ever really stop a river from flowing towards the bottom of the mountain. You can divert it significantly, but it always ends in the same place.

This is also the implication of the numbers and the Valenzetti equation. i.e.: No matter how you manipulate the variables you always end up with the same conclusion.

I think this will prove to be true for all the characters in the next season. Things will be different, but they will end up on the island somehow, and by the end we will see that the ultimate conclusion was inevitable no matter the specific actions any one person took.

Arsenal - Juliet (sp?) was blown up with a nuke on top of the same energy that made Desmond naked and see the future. Dead, maybe, maybe not.

Thomas - Doubt it was Widmore as he seemed to be off the island talking to Eloise at the time when "Goatee Lock/Neckbeard" was on the island. The loophole I think has more to do with "Neckbeard" killing TDFNAJ (The Deity Formerly Known as Jacob.)

OJ - The second example of Donnie Darko shows a world that was divergent but it collapsed back in on itself and became what the "Proper" time line was supposed to be.

Given that we have had a season with parallel time lines throughout, I think that there may be something to Juliet "dying" at the seemingly same instant that Jacob is "killed" and thrown onto a fire 30 years in the future. This last part may only make more sense in my head. But I doubt we have seen the last of Jacob

it could be that the season starts and everything is reset. we flash forward to an older crew. season end we find the crew ended up on the island anyway in the reset timeline, and then meets the survivors from our timeline, who've basically been bounced to the newtimeline, but at the same time. That is, 30 years ago. Like they've travelled along the superposition of themselves at that particular time.

Ok now the smoke moster and neckbeard (or going to call him loophole too goofy of a name is neckbeard, OK I don't see them being a team. If there was anything out there that was helping loophole they would have had someone help loophole get out of his cabin jail.

My honest guess for next year is that it was Jack's eye we see in the teaser, and that they are back in the present, the nuke+the indident was a big old reset button for them. The plane did still crash but they got chucked into modern day. All but Rose and Bernard they are the Adam and Eve skeleton from season one.

Also

Juliet-Dead
Sayid-Dead (maybe joinging team ghost or the black lanterns)
Jacob- Not dead, messed up hurt but not dead. Kicked into th fire, come on that screams for a Pheonix rising

Sammy C:

I see what you're saying, but I've begun to view the writing on this show in much the same light as Faraday's theory on time travel. You can throw pebbles in and the stream will go around, but throw in a boulder and you can move the river.

I few Eko and Libby as larger rocks. Eko's removal and Libby's refusal to come back were able to be worked around, but it hasn't been as smooth as they would like.

Charlotte's age is more like a pebble. The actress they eventually hired to play Charlotte is substantially younger than the character was originally written; so Charlotte wouldn't have been born in 1977, much less 7-8 like the girl Faraday encountered. But as long as you don't look at it too closely, you won't see it.

None of this really means anything. I'm just saying that looking at Eko's abbreviated storyline and trying to fit it into the larger plotline of the show is about as useful as looking at Nikki & Paulo's storyline: it's a speedbump, and doesn't really fit in with the rest of the show.

Something more to chew on:

If the bomb goes off in 1977 and resets the timeline, and Oceanic 815 doesn't crash, that still doesn't prevent Ajira 316 from crashing.

Oh...and the biggest copout of the evening?! Ben was PRETENDING to see Jacob?

What the hell was that shit?

That's some of the laziest writing ever, and if I needed an indication between that, and Faraday's voice in the Chang video that they are just making it up as they go along...then I have it. Continuity error my ass.

Anyone remember Locke from season one? Anyone? The island advocating, self reliant, boar killing, mysteriously healed cripple with a giant box of knives?

I miss that guy.

wow the finale helped me realize what the show is about. I think it's about 2 gods playing war games on the island. Darma, the others, survivors they're all chess pieces in the gods game.

I thought the DS Ring was Charlie's - his band was Drive Shaft, and I'm almost positive he gave it to Aaron, which explains why it was in the crib. Not sure who Dexter Stratton is...

As for Jacob's role in the flashbacks, I thought it just illustrated how Jacob influenced everyone to go back to the island - he stops Sayid, leading to his wife dying which sets all his actions into motion. He tells Kate that stealing is wrong (stealing Aaron is wrong, maybe?). He talks Hurley into getting on the plane. It just seemed to me that everything he did in the episode was to get them to successfully set that bomb off - probably to save his life. A loophole of his own, perhaps.

Spock Prime will appear and tell Jack that he needs to learn kung fu if he's ever going to defeat the Cloverfield monster.

Then everyone will dance.

Seriously, though: I think Juliet succeeded in doing *something* to the timeline, but I think everyone will still be on the island. Jacob made sure of that.

This season started off pretty strong but quickly lost it with about 5-6 boring episodes of Sawyer and Juliet's domestic life with the Dharma initiative dragging on far too long. It almost felt like they were just killing time with the second half of the season.
At this point I don't really care what happens anymore, I'd rather just get the whole of season 6 on DVD and watch it after it's over instead of following it next year. The season finale was far too predictable, as soon as I saw the box I know Locke's body was in it and about a third of the way through it was obvious it would end with the nuke going off/cliffhanger ending.

I do like that they are giving Jacob a story and enemy, and finally addressed what happened to Bernard, Rose and Vincent, even if it was a quick throw us a bone wrap up. Hopefully Claire and Christian make an appearance again after being MIA for the entire season. I have a feeling that they're going to try to wrap it up with some sort of mythological god storyline after seeing the three toed Anibus statue in the scene with Jacob and his enemy on the beach.

This seems to be the season where the storyline fell completely apart though. Instead of answering older questions they're ignoring most of the original questions, like why are the others there? where did the Dharma initiation come,from? what is the smoke monster? and focusing on newer plotlines like Jacob and the original cast becoming part of Dharma I hope they can wrap the series up well, but I don't see it happening.

ManWithPez:

The video with Chang and Faraday DOESN'T count. None of these alternate reality games in between seasons count. The producers said in their podcast that the video was supposed to start another alternate reality game featuring Chang & Faraday, but because of the economic downturn, they didn't have any money to do it. They tried to make it work in the show, and they didn't have the time for it.

As for Ben never having met Jacob... until the last 15 minutes of the episode, Locke wanting to kill Jacob didn't make any sense. Until it did make sense.

This is a show that has thrown us element after element that doesn't make sense, until suddenly it does make sense. They're not done with the story, so there's stuff that won't make sense until they explain it.

The DS ring-- I thought it was Drive Shaft, not Dexter Stratton (I don't remember him!)

If the Locke we saw last night wasn't Locke, then how did he remember all the stuff from when Ben went into the cabin with Locke? And why bring it up at all? Was he the guy in the cabin?

Where's the guitar Hurley brought? Is it a guitar at all?

I think it's safe to say that Island-Christian, Island-Walt ("get up, John!"), and Island-Locke were all Mr. Loophole. Who else was he pretending to be? How long has he been leading them to this point?

Kate may be a needy, psychotic bitch, but she CAN rock a pair of blue jeans almost as well as Juliet can rock a low-cut top.

Dexter Stratton was only mentioned once.

Charlie's Ring belonged to his brother and his mother before that.

Supposedly the initials D.S. stood for "dexter stratton" an ancestor of Charlie's.

Drive Shaft was named such because it has the same initials as Dexter Stratton.

So I forgot to put in my name when I responded to the Dexter Stratton questions... so I'm doing it again proper like and I'm pasting in what a quick google search verified:

"Dexter Stratton was the paternal grandfather of Megan Pace, the great-grandfather of Charlie and Liam Pace and the great-great grandfather of Liam's daughter Megan. ("Greatest Hits") , (Official Lost Podcast transcript/May 21, 2007)

Charlie told Shannon that his grandfather in England had taught him how to fish ("Walkabout"). It is unclear whether this is a reference to Dexter's son, or Charlie's paternal grandfather.
Dexter Stratton's ring was passed down through the generations, eventually to Liam and Charlie.

A ring bearing his initials has been passed on to the first born of each generation in the Stratton family, inspiring the Pace brothers to name their band Drive Shaft. "

In terms of the theories that the equation is the defining mathematical essence of existence, I think that's spot on.

The numbers seem like a mathematical equivalent to destiny, they predict what will happen and how all of human existence will play out.

In one episode (can't remember which one) it's stated that one of the goals of the Dharma initiative is to change those numbers. By doing so they would change all of human destiny.

It would seem that Jacob/Neckbeard are opposing forces of good and evil and are equivalent to God/Satan. All is set out, but because humans have free will they still have the ability to change their destiny, and that would be evidenced by changing the numbers.

Throughout the episode Jacob keeps offering people choices (Hurley, Ben). He values free will but keeps influencing people to come to the island, to try and change the numbers and allow them to change what will come to pass.

It's basically the age old philosophical battle between an all knowing, all powerful god who has pre-written our destinies; and the notion that he has given us all free will.

The conversation at the start between Jacob and Neckbeard equates to the book of Job (as Mr. Wesley pointed out earlier). Satan (Neckbeard) asks Jacob (God), why he continues to have faith in man when destiny is pre-written and they are all sinners and nothing will change. Jacob responds that it only ends once and everything else is progress--basically saying that the cycle may continue and destiny may come to pass, but he has given them free will and continues to bring them to the island because he has faith in them that they can be redeemed and change that outcome.

K, this is long.

OK I hate this stupid idea because now I keep thinking about what is going on in Lost and posting it. Damn you Rob.

Hoever I was thinking about the statue again and thought wait, that is not a hippo god it was not fat and pregnant. So looking into my vast knowledge of pointless facts I figured that it was actually Sobek. If you know anything about Egyptian myths it makes a lot more sence then the birth god, as Sobek who first came out of the waters of chaos to create the world.

Also I am thinking Loophole may actually be Jacobs brother from the bible. And well Jacob is also Jacob from the Bible, because again if you had some weird need to learn all about religion like I did, Jacob moved to Egypt with his family. And his brother Esau and him were known to have been fighting one and other from they day they were conceived.

And more importantly

In the Book of Jubilees (which is neither part of the Jewish nor most Christian canons), Esau's father, Isaac, compels Esau to swear not to attack or kill Jacob after Isaac has died.

So there more food for thought. Thanks for reading my insanity.

Matsaun: Pessimistic much? Take your negativity somewhere its welcome.

Mr. Wesley: You are correct sir!

ZeroCorpse, Re: the ladies: That is the truest thing I've ever heard anyone say about anything ever.

All I know is that based on this season's of LOST, Star Trek and the alternate timeline in Fringe...JJ Abrams is definitely trying to build a time machine

About the numbers and the equation, free will, and good versus evil.

I highly suspect that the whole idea of good versus evil will shown to be a false choice, AND that destiny and free will are not mutually exclusive.

Consider that you can't change the equation, humanity is doomed no matter what we're all sinners. The difference between Jacob and Loophole isn't that Jacob thinks we're fundamentally good and he wants to save us, but that Jacob thinks that in the end we have the capacity to redeem our sinning tendencies and make our inevitable annihilation a good thing. Whereas Loophole thinks that we will always be sinners so there is no point in even giving us a chance to redeem ourselves.

Its all about perspective and optimism versus pessimism rather than good versus evil. Loophole expects us to destroy ourselves in an orgy of violence and hate, Jacob wants to help us get in touch with our noble side despite our evil tendencies.

Think about the way the Asgard went out in Stargate--sure, their civilization was doomed, but they accepted it with grace and used their demise to help the humans defeat the evil Ori.

Arsenal: great call on the book of Jubilee. Jacob and Loophole are children of the island, and cannot kill each other because that would be betraying their maker.

If "Loophole" really is equivalent to Esau, then I think "Neckbeard" is as good a name as any for him because Esau was supposed to have been so hairy!

I stand corrected re: Horace vs Roger. My bad memory I suppose.

Just to separate this from the above post, try re-watching the seen where Ben and Jacob have their conversation from the perspective of Jacob being god and Ben being man.

Ben complaining that he constantly has to follow Jacob's commandments and lists without ever having proof that Jacob exists, without ever being allowed to see Jacob, always being told that he had to wait to meet Jacob. Then finally getting frustrated and killing God.

Sounds like a fairly clear allegory on the relationship between God and man over the years.

Not meaning to equate everything in the episode to God, but if the sandal fits...

Oh course Richard was on the Black Rock. That explains the pirate black eyeliner. Old habits die hard.

RFinn, Good call, that fits very well, I think.

Arsenal, even better call. I just looked at Sobek on wikipedia and it totally fits. First of all the image is definitely closer to that of the statue, and the description is uncannily similar to Jacob.

"Gradually, Sobek also came to symbolize the produce of the Nile and the fertility that it brought to the land; its status thus became more ambiguous.

Sobek's ambiguous nature led some Egyptians to believe that he was a repairer of evil that had been done, rather than a force for good in itself. He was also said to call on suitable gods and goddesses required for protecting people in situation, effectively having a more distant role, nudging things along, rather than taking an active part. In this way, he was seen as a more primal god, eventually becoming regarded as an avatar of the primal god Amun, who at that time was considered the chief god."

SammyC:
Since this is a discussion board about this season of Lost, and I haven't liked this season at all compared to the previous four seasons I believe my negativity is welcome here. It feels like Lost is truely lost.
Also, I'm not pessimistic much and I have no idea how Asgard went out in Stargate.

One thing I did like about this season was the character shifts between Jack and Sawyer. Sawyer becoming the responsible one, keeping things together while Jack became a whiney follower. The fistfight near the end was highly rewarding too, been waiting for that for years.

I think acceptance is key here. Sawyer, Bernard and Rose all seemed to have the right idea; make the best of the situation they were in. Jack, on the other hand, feels like he needs to do something, needs to change things in order for him to be at peace. With that in mind I'm not so sure that detonating the bomb was the right idea here.

SammyC

I like the idea of Sobek and think it equates well to the idea of the smoke monster.

I've been wondering for a long time about the motivations of Smokey, why it lets some people live and kills others and I'm not 100% convinced that Neckbeard and Smokey are one in the same. For one thing, Neckbeard/Locke seemed way too surprised to learn what the monster had told Ben.

I think it makes sense that Jacob and Neckbeard are opposing forces (good/evil, yin/yan, coke/pepsi or whatever you want to call it). And I'm also on board with your above post about the fluidity of their opposition to each other and how the traditional notion of good vs. evil might not be quite what it's about.

With that in mind I think it makes sense to view Smokey in much the same way as Sobek, a primal force of nature that doesn't necessarily represent good or evil.

If you look at the temple, the statue, all the really old stuff on the island it seems to be for the benefit of Smokey and not Jacob/Neckbeard (the built in vents, the etchings on the walls, etc). It seems that Smokey is something far older and more powerful than either Jacob or Neckbeard.

Someone might have already said this (I'm too lazy to read 75+ comments). I figured the change in the LOST logo at the end (from white on black to black on white) was because a hydrogen bomb had just gone off. Big bright flash of light... get it?

CK: You're right with the hydrogen bomb theory about the titles, but the question is whether or not it ends there.

Black/White is a big theme in lost and it strikes me that the creators wouldn't do something as big as changing the now iconic Lost end title to an inverted black/white version without it meaning something bigger.

First of all because they know that the fans will read into it, and second of all because changing a title costs money, and they likely wouldn't spend it just for the hydrogen bomb link.

Remember that little box that asks if you want it to remember your name and email and such, but never does, and has mocking you for the last year or so?
Yes. YES, I DO.

RFinn:

They film in Hawaii. They can CG a giant statue and a being of living smoke. You don't think they can afford to change a title card from all black to all white?

Not that I'm disagreeing with you. I think that the sign change probably does have something to do with what they'll be doing in the final season. I just think that rationalization that they can't afford to change the title card is funny.

Mr Wesley

Point taken, and I agree that they could probably insist that all CG editing be done on platinum computers with precious gemstones for keys and it would happen.

But I just don't see them going to any expense or trouble to change the title card to match the hydrogen bomb ending if there isn't a little more of a reason than that.

I liked it even though they kinda kicked you in the nuts with the lack of explanations and the whole Kate thing (you know her still being in the show).

Here's my little theory I think it was neckbeard the evil god in the cabin not Jacob. That's why they freaked out that the circle was broken and they burnt the cabin.

Sigh, here in NZ we are still three or four weeks away from the finale, yet i willingly go out and search for spoilers, ruining the big twists... i probably need counselling for this.

I just got the idea that maybe Jacob is human and loophole is the island. Jacob came to the island and found a way to use it to become immortal/have the island not attack him/contact people in the outside world/...
So now he's on level with the island, and tries to convince him humans aren't that bad, hence bringing people to them.

So it would seem that Jacob keeps bringing people to the island, and the eternal conflict continues. I really liked when Rose (or Bernard) said: "You travelled 30 years back in time, and you're still finding ways to shoot each other"

Also, while taking a few steps back, how cool was it to see Jack and Sawyer beat the shit out of each other while wearing Dharma jumpsuits. That should have been a cold open from before we knew about time travel.

The time travel in this season also shined another light on the whole 'destiny' thing adressed in lost. While in earlier seasons it was more like 'I think it is my destiny to open the hatch', or something, now it suddenly got more clear. Like Daniels mother having seen her son, having read his notebook, knowing he absolutely had to become a mathematical wonder. Also, notice how young Ellie hopes she can change the past, and older Eloise knowingly sends her son to the island. I think this will proof you can't change the past, or changing the past will be much, much worse then what would happen first.

@Katedrinks: there's always other ways to watch it. Here in Belgium, I think they haven't even aired season 4

The cost of inverting the colors surely had nothing to do with decision for such a move. Consider that JJ himself created that title.
Hate it or love it, its good to have a show like lost on for all of us to divert this much energy and thought into. Regardless of how it ends, or who likes it, All of us will have a little less to talk about one year from now.

I won't type LOST SUX, well, I won't type just that, because I kinda gave up on this show after the second episode. wasn't my flavor.

I now watch The Unusuals that's on right after lost, and that show is underrated.

LOST was amazing. loved the episode, but the ending came too soon.

I've never been one for guessing directions for the story. I let it unfold in its own time before my eyes. I just enjoy the show, I don't obsess over it.

LOVED it! The cliffhanger ending didn't bother me a bit. I've become waaaay more patient as I've gotten older. I'm embarrassed to admit I didn't see Locke tumbling out of the box. For the simple reason that Neckbeard/Locke knew so many details about Locke's life. How exactly did he know the details of Locke's murder? I guess it could be explained by saying that when Locke's body was returned to the Island Neckbeard was able to take Locke's form and absorb all of his memories.

I've always been a Jack fan but he's been given one shit sandwich after another the last few seasons. I was hoping he'd tear Sawyer a new one. But like a dumbass, instead of putting Sawyer away when he had him down he left himself open for a cheap shot to the nads. Because up to that point he was beating the crap out of Sawyer.

I love reading Doc Jensen's recaps over at EW.com and I highly recommend them to anyone looking to catch up. I think a lot of his theories are right on, especially the idea of seasons mirroring one another. Season 5 had a lot of parallels to Season 2 and I think the Final season is going to run parallel to the first on some level.

Regardless, I think we're set for a satisfying conclusion. One of the things that I loved about the BSG finale is that it wrapped up the show and answered every major question I had. I expect the same from Lost next year.

OK, I read through all the comments and it brought a lot more insight. But no one has mentioned that a few episodes ago when fake-locke (I still think it's smokey/loophole) and ben went to the temple to be judged, just above the grid on the floor where smokey appeared there was a depiction of the Egyptian god on the right and what could be a lightning bolt/smokey on the left. that's quite significant I think.

I think by now everyone has said it all. The two big things I'm keen on seeing:

Claire. I thought she was supposed to pop up at the end of this season? Gimme my Claire dammit!

I'd still like a little more solid explanation of who the hell the "Hostiles" or "Others" really are. I mean, they're obviously people Jacob culled over time onto the island, but what's their purpose other than being a pain in the ass group of people that kidnapped Walt and liked to fuck with Dharma?

And I kinda gotta confess - there's no way I'd leave Juliet for Kate if I was Sawyer. We all know that bitch is nuts.

I'm sure I'm wrong here, since I usually am regarding this show, but two things we're all presuming here:

1. That the white at the end was the bomb going off. What if it was one last time shift? All other time fluxes have happened with a complete fade to white, so who's to say that's not the case here?

2. That Jacob going back to influence others is simply to make the present come to be. What if his going back was to change things and we'll see the ramifications of these changes next season? For instance, maybe he convinced Kate to never steal again. And what if, had James not had the pen Jacob gave him, he wouldn't have been caught writing his vengeance letter? And maybe Jacob's words to Sun and Jin give them something to keep in mind at all times and their marriage problems never happen, so Sun never has the affair and makes plans to leave the country?

Again, this is probably all nonsense heresy, but with Lost it always helps to think completely off-track sometimes.

@ Jedieb: Good call, loophole-Locke still knows a lot of things about regular Locke. That became especially clear when he pointed out the door to the hatch when they were visiting the beach camp. I guess he has the same powers Miles has.

The bomb amplifies the electromagnetic pocket's energy and in turn upon detonation returns all those in 1977 to the present. Remember when Desmond turned the fail safe key in the hatch and woke up in the jungle naked. Same thing happens again. Miles was right when he said the bomb is the incident because Daniel's mom was right. She sent her son back knowing that he is what will cause her to help Jack in detonating the bomb because if she doesn't kill him then there is no motive and convincing her would be quite difficult. She sent him knowing that this is his destiny or in other words the only way to maintain this existing time line and avoid creating a separate one.

As for the Jacob/Locke/Ben ClusterF*** I believe that Jacob is the good and his friend from the beginning of the show is the evil. I believe that Jacob kept evil at bay this whole time and that is why we see the end screens in black suggesting that the black is what is causing all these events. When the show ended we see the white screen meaning the balance has shifted and now the white team aka “good guys” is fast approaching and they are the driving force with Fake Locke/Jacob’s Enemy keeping “them” (They are coming) at bay. The final season will reveal how Jacob and his friend came to be and whether they are Gods/Satan as some have suggested or maybe they hopped on to this island and learned some ancient secrets. I believe that Jacob’s Enemy’s mission began with Richard Alpert bringing Ben to the Temple, he was the perfect candidate to help carryout his mission against Jacob which would confirm the Smoke Monster theory he “fixed” him but in return the other’s knew that he would be a good leader but shall never meet Jacob in fear that he might kill him.

The good guys will be 815 crew and the new recruits along with Richard Alpert who will rise up against Jacob’s Enemy and defeat him. Richard will be promoted to Jacob’s role and Jack/Sawyer will take on Richard’s role. We get a new set of others ala Battlestar Galactica “all this has happened before and all this will happen again” note the statement Jacob’s enemy makes at the beginning “always ends the same," with destruction and corruption”. But I guess Jacob brings people to the island as a test sort of like a mini world as in some religious teachings that we are brought on this world as a test of faith or in lost terms destiny.

As excited as I am for the next season of LOST, even if it's a replay 'but different' version of the first season, I'd be remiss not to point this out - JJ Abrams did the exact same thing with the last season of Felicity!

Hiya all of youz!..
How are yaz doing?

Just wanted to say you all have a great forum. Seems like a good place I can actually be a part of. :)

Which is the very good movie in 2009? Please help!Thank you.

Hey i just wanted to say hi to everyone.

tks for the effort you put in here I appreciate it!

what day is it on?

Buenos dias to this great community, I'm begginer here. It's very nice for being a part of so outstanding community. Cheers. :)