• 1.) It wasn't so much the line became stagnant since the rule was that they weren't allowed to cover the missing year or use a certain amount of b-list characters (you know, they all had to actually move FORWARD), but got hurt explaining the new current status quos, which often times went for about 4-6 months, before they could tell any sort of stories. Combined that with lateness and it hurt everything. 2.) Who still all wrote other books at the time 52 was happening. You'd have a better argument saying it tied up artists and inkers. 3.) Sure 52 was apart of it, but seriously not the sole reason for the problem. Late books as well as books people weren't going to buy because they didn't like the new directions or weren't going to buy anyways because of lack of interest. 4.) DC became married more to the weekly series more because it did sold so well rather then lack of sales. 5.) So 52, rather then say.....Countdown, is to blame for Final Crisis. Okay then. 6.) 52's ending whether it was liked or not is opinion I'm afraid, but no good cliffhangers? Luthor pressing a button at 11:59 on New Years is a hell of a cliffhanger. (but okay, opinions may vary) And worst mini-series? Never read Ultimatum I take it? 7.) 52 actually generated a hell of a lot more buzz for Black Adam then he had received before (combined with his excellent mini afterwards). Countdown sapped it from him and lack of exposure after his mini and his Countdown appearance kicked it all away. 8.) Most new characters were killed within the series (which funnily enough for some, the biggest one who didn't wantthe Black Marvel Family to die, as well as Vic Sage, was Dan Didio). Others have been doing small cameos to getting a series now (The Great 10), appeared in a series that no one bought (Infinity Inc) or had a mini-series just as a follow up (Four Horsemen). Plus the book was sold more on explaining what happened in the missing year and the names of the writer's involved then it was for it's long term ramifications. 9.) 52 pissed off a lot of creators most notably Jeph Loeb? Mind for linking me up on those?

• ...The general consensus is that Millar, Bendis and Loeb all pick up the Big Fat Q's bar tabs at the local pubs, discos and other hangouts. The tabs are so huge that in order to pay them off, Joey the Hutt gives these three hacks the choice gigs. There's absolutely no other explanation that makes sense, because all three of these choads are behind what's fucked up Marvel for most of this decade.

• If you take a close loo at "52," you'll see it was a gigantic mistake. 1) The entire DC line was held hostage while it was going on. So books became stagnant. 2) It tied up their best writers on one title. 3) Because it was weekly, fans had to drop titles to get it. Sales for other books dropped and once "52" was over, fans never went back to the titles they dropped (since they dropped them a year ago). The book wasn't doing 40,000 titles, it was doing over a 100,000 titles a week. Let's say 500,000 a month. As impressive as that was, again, it removed over half of Green Lantern's readership (just as an example). 4) DC became married to the weekly series, because their monthly title sales dropped (due to them being stagnant). Which leads to.... 5) "52" ultimately ruined "Final Crisis." Because DC needed another weekly series, Didio decided to take Grant's ideas and give them to other people. So by the time "Final Crisis" was ready, Grant had to rework his story to fit the mess Didio created. It killed the impact the death of Orion would have had, as well as the shock of seeing Mary Marvel evil. It also contradicted a lot of what Grant wrote (because he wasn't able to change everything in time). 6) "52" really didn't end well. It was slow at first, never had any good cliffhangers (due to the real time aspect), and forced DC to release the absolute worst mini-series of all time (World War III). 7) "52" ruined Black Adam. A character that was generating a lot of buzz and could have easily supported his own title. Black Adam was so popular, Marvel's Namor began wearing a black bodysuit to appear more like him (which is ironic, since Johns turned Black Adam into DC's version of Namor). 8) "52" generated a lot of buzz over new characters being created in the series and they were immediately killed or completely discarded after the book was over. Why is that important? "52" was sold as a book that would have long term ramifications for the DCU, yet it never delivered on it. 9) It pissed off a lot of creators at DC, most notably, Jeff Leob. Hmmm, maybe it wasn't so bad after all? ;)

• Yeah, "52" was awesome. I'm actually really excited for the "resurrection" idea. I liked nearly all of those titles, especially "Starman." If they somehow have Tony Harris involved too, even if it's only a cover, it'll be worthwhile for that alone.

• 52 a bad idea?! That was one of the most brilliant ideas DC has had in years. It's the only fallback Dan Didio has anymore. 52 was one of the few recent comics to really have an epic feel and give a satisfying ending. So many comics are left open-ended, or don't tie things up at the end; 52 is one of the few comics that does have a definitive conclusion.

• I still say this shit smells like kah-kah and I don't like it!

• Geoff, Loeb is the smartest writer in the biz. He knows what artists the fans want to see and he always makes sure he pairs up with them. Unlike Paul Dini, who is a much better writer, who works with someone he belives is more artistic. If Leob were doing Gotham City Sirens, you better believe that someone like Frank Cho would be doing the book and it'd be the number one book. Look at the sucess he had with Supergirl. Which is why Marvel will never allow his exclusivity agreement to expire, for fear that he'll do books with DC again. DC fans didn't follow him to Marvel (though, if he led off with the Campbell drawn Spider-Man book, they would have), but Marvel fans will follow him to DC. Mainly, because those type of artists are already at Marvel and again, he's smart enough to get them to work with him. Pissing him off and letting him go to Marvel was one of 10 blunders DC did in the last couple of years. As bad as his stuff is, it sells. The other six are 52, One Year Later, Countdown to Final Crisis, Letting Ed Brubaker go, Not letting Geoff Johns do the Ronnie Raymond Firestorm relaunch, and ruining Wildstorm's momentum.

• The problem with Loeb is that as much as people hate his "big" stuff, he always just falls back on working with Sale to boost his profile enough that he stays in the public eye. I'm sure DC will take him back even if Marvel doesn't renew his exclusivity agreement, because, as noted above, it's not like his books aren't selling. (And I'd actually kind of like to see Ultimates 3 re-done with art that doesn't look like a kid's sidewalk chalk drawing that got left out in the rain.)

• Relax. yes, it will suck for awhile, but after awhile of no one buying this dreck, Loeb will go away. I give that guy five years, tops. I give Bendis more, even though I think he has been terrible for comics, he sells. Point being: bad writers/storylines will eventually go away but characters endure. The Ultimates will be fixed. I'm very hopeful of DC Blackest Night, as I believe they may very well revive several characters killed/ruined by "sensationlist" or "event" writers. I believe in Geoff Johns.

• I just held a seance and talked to Jack Kirby and he said he is most definitely flipping like a pancake in his casket!

• Excuse me, good sires at Marvel? WHO GIVES A FUCK ANYMORE?! I am so sick of Marvel and their bullshit the past few years, I don't care if the entire marvel Universe fucking blows up and starts over! But keep the classic characters classic. Did I like the comics from the 70's, 80's and 90's? Yes. Did I like the semi-campiness of those books? Yes. Stop fucking with my favorite heroes that I am quickly losing interest in because guys like Quesada lets this bullshit go on. How much say does Stan Lee have in Marvel anymore? Any? I'm guessing Stan is rolling in his grave some days and he isn't even in it yet!!!!!

• NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is Millar still going to write Ultimate Avengers or is this Loeb-helmed pile of shit going to replace it? Did anyone at Marvel even read Ultimatum? Since I've heard of no mass self-inflicted eye gougings at Marvel HQ, I'm assuming the answer is no. Why even reload the Ultimate U if they are going to immediately make it a worse mess than it was before?

• I really loved Ordway & Co on Power of Shazam. That was the last comic I actually <i>really</i> looked forward to every month (even when it went a bit crappy at the end). I'm worried that issue '#48' is going to be an excuse just to kill of a load of fun characters I actually liked for the sake of Blackest Night. I'm now gonna have to wait until January to see if my happy memories have been defiled.

• "Liefeldian"

• &#64;Juice: I definitely didn't mean to imply with my post that only Marvel is guilty of these @#$%ing event storylines. DC is definitely just as guitly, but I've never read DC nearly as much as Marvel-- partially because when I started reading comics DC was doing on of these events (late-80s, early-90s, can't remember the storyline) and I stayed away for most of my life. The only DC books that I've bothered to follow were Batman titles. Yeah, yeah, Bats is one of the worst characters going for cross-overs, but most of those tended to stay in the Bat-family, so I was already buying them. Like X-Men. It's the universe spanning events that we're anti. Now, just because DC's guilt is equitable to Marvel's doesn't excuse Marvel, or vice versa. Both publishers need to stop, and stop now.

• In regards to Siege, I think that we will see the dropping of some Avengers books and maybe even go to a single Avengers book. Some of the art for it shows Doom and Norman fighting so I think everything will be coming down. Also, Bendis has said that this event will cause Thor, Iron Man and Cap to reunite and join together again. This is also happening after JMS leaves Thor because JMS said he would not do any crossover stuff with Thor as long as he was on the book. It sounds like it could be a good event. Now, all the people who are bitching about Marvel doing event after event, you need to also bitch about DC doing the exact same thing because they have been putting out event after event for a while now as well. Don't just blame Marvel because they are considered evil in your eyes. And about Loeb: He needs to stop writing the Ultimates. I also bought the first two issues of Ultimates 3 and then I saw how shitty it really was. They always said that in the relaunch of the Ultimate license that there would be two Ultimates books, one written by Millar and the other written by Loeb, so just stick with Millar since he knows what he is doing and can actually write a good story. Also, Loeb was a writer for Heroes for a while so you can see that he truly is an epic fail, since he helped to contribute to the utter failure of it after the first season. And on Heroes sucking the big one: please bring Chuck back so that NBC can stop creating alcoholics across this nation.

• Geoff is right, Icon exists so Joe's pals can do creator owned work for Marvel and not Image (Bendis has pretty much stated this). It's one of the reaons I get so angry at the comics press, since they are virtually ignoring the fact that Marvel is over-producing books to put other publishers out of business (just they did in the ninties). As for Jeff Leob, it's funny, DC became more popular then Marvel when he was doing DC work. Marvel fans followed him to Supergirl, Superman/Batman, etc. Ed Brubaker's Captain America was ignored until they killed Steve Rogers. Still doesn't sell as well as it should. But, Jeff Leob? Marvel fans can't get enough. Remember that, the next time an obnoxious fan goes on and on about how awesome Marvel is.

• Yeah that last image is clearly a red herring. I mean they just brought Thor back from the dead 3 years ago, and they're still in the process of bringing Cap back. No way they just go ahead and kill them again. Right now the Avengers (pick your flavor Mighty/New/Dark) don't really need the big three to sell copies, so I'm guessing this is all about finding a new direction for those three characters.

• god loeb is such a shitty writer, like can he ever do anything good? and as for marvel i am so glad dark reign is coming to a close, i never really got into the secret invasion or dark reign but it just began to piss me off when osborn started invading all my favorite comics, hes such a douche, and yah that last image = misleading

• These kinds of things continue to be why my friends and I don't read very many super hero titles, anymore. I thought House of M was interesting, and I liked what some of the X-titles did after that, especially the Messiah CompleX. Civil War, the main book, was fun, but the other titles were mostly non-starters for me. I can't even be bothered with all this Invasion and Dark Reign BS, other than what I need to know to enjoy the three X-Men books that I still bother to pick up. In general, I think, Marvel currently has some of the best writers/artists in the comic biz, but they continue to run these EPIC UNIVERSE SPANNING EVENT CROSSOVER EVENTS... and it's beyond annoying. I admit to liking the idea that the characters in the Marvel U (and the DCU) are interconnected, so if something major occurs in one title, it should be reflected or felt in another title-- Daredevil and Spider-Man are perfect for this, since both are NYC-centric. But having every title published be part of one continuing story for YEARS is mind-numbing at best. Stop it, Marvel. Stop it now. And, yes, as much as like their earlier works in the MU (and before), BM Bendis and Joe Quesadilla are to blame.

• *gasp* Who told you about those pictures?! It was a photoshop! They faked it.... I'm head of Marvel and you can't prove anything! *sobs*

• "Marvel will turn a profit on this dogshit and hopefully some of that money will go to subsidize the good stuff they're publishing under the auspices of the Icon imprint." 1. Marvel's owned by Disney now. Profitability isn't really that important to them anymore. 2. Let's not pretend that Icon is Vertigo or anything (not that Vertigo probably isn't self-subsidizing anyway, but Icon hasn't exactly produced a Sandman, Y or Fables. Shit, it hasn't even produced a DMZ)

• Ultimates should end and reboot in 5 years. With a whole different creative staff. Also, all Loeb Ultimates should be hunted down and incinerated or buried in a concrete slab like those old E.T. Atari 2600 cartridges.

• CREAM, Rob. Marvel's a business, not an artists' collective. U3 and "Ultimatum" were abortions of Liefeldian proportions. No argument here. But they moved units. That's never unimportant to a business, but it becomes an especially prominent concern in tough economic times for companies that sell goods bought exclusively with disposable income. Marvel will turn a profit on this dogshit and hopefully some of that money will go to subsidize the good stuff they're publishing under the auspices of the Icon imprint.

• You know I can remember a day when crossovers were rare and fun events. But come on Marvel give it a rest already. How many years straight have there been crossover after crossover events? I know you're trying to maximize profits and all by trying to get us to by every comic every month but how about a break already? I blame the House of M. Damn you Bendis. This is all your fault!

• Ultimates 3 worst comic of the last decade? Ahem. I assume you haven't read the abortion that was ULTIMATUM, the UU's first big 'event' comic, also written by Loeb. But at least his backwards failing has spawned the awesome Ultimate Edit Week on 4th letter. Hope we can expect more of that with the new titles!

• Meh, I lost interest in the Ultimate Marvel universe when they didn't have the balls to let Spiderman stay dead. It was a good death, and it seemed like the characters felt it! But nope, he lived. *sigh* In the main Marvel continuity, I'm just worried they're going to have Osborn's final, climactic battle, and it's all going to come down to pod-racing age Phobos and Franklin Richards saving the day. I'll be glad to have Osborn not be the over-villain of the entire universe, though.

• Oh and my thought on Siege is this Norman has the List going on, Thor/Ironman will be targeted and "killed". But it will end up being a LMD of Stark and the stupid Thor Clone. This will be a rally point all the heroes will team up and fight Norms crew. They will all get teh hell beat of them them (Dark Avengers, I mean Hawkeye took all but Sentry and Ares down alone) FIght will go on and on, with Thunderbolts joining in some of them switching sides like normal. The New Avengers will dress up like the villians, or at least SPiderman and the Green Goblin just to screw with Norman, Norman will go batshit insane and just start slaughtering or at least trying to kill all the heroes. It will end with the Real Capt America Iron Man and Thor saving the day and then I can see Steve Rodgers taking over Shield and letting Bucky keep being Capt America. Of course Norman and the Dark Avengers will still be out there plotting somthing but that always happens

• He apparently has many, many fans, cause everything he makes sells really well, even if he just wiped his ass on 22 pages and called it a comic. Until people stop buying his shit, they will keep selling his shit.

• Are we supposed to believe that Norman Osborn kills the Avengers in 2010? I doubt it. Still, looks interesting thou.

• As crappy as Lobe may be there is nothing he can do that can be worse the "Charlie brown" Ult Spiderman. Just crap page after page.

• I loved 'The Long Halloween" and its follow-up, but good god, don't let Loeb anywhere near the Ultimates ever again. I've got a high tolerance for sh***y comics, but after two issue of his run on ultimates, I had to scourge myself to feel clean.

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