@step5555 @nix.nightbird @dr.rocketscience I agree and disagree with this thread. Typical Doctor Who for you...

@nix.nightbird @dr.rocketscience To counter one ridiculous strawman argument with another: everyone who thinks River is hated because she's female hasn't watched any Doctor Who other than the new series and therefore has no idea what they're talking about.

That makes no sense. There have been plenty of "girls" that have accessed the TARDIS console. Just off the top of my head from the original run: Zoe, Romana I, Romana II, Tegan & Nyssa.

@nix.nightbird @dr.rocketscience @step5555 You can love her all you want - I still hate her. But to say that people who hate her are upset because she's a girl flying the Tardis is ridiculous and actually quite insulting. I think people here who don't like her have given plenty of valid reasons why they don't think the character works. I'm more than willing to hear your reasons for why you think she does work and not some dumb brush off. There have been plenty of strong female characters on the show - who incidentally could fly the Tardis, most notably Romana - who I have loved. River Song is not one of them.

@nix.nightbird @dr.rocketscience @step5555 You can keep tossing all the strawman sexist arguments you want out there, but the problems with her from the narrative, acting and chemistry standpoints are still going to be there at the end of the day.

And when was there EVER a "no girls allowed" sign on the console? Have we retconned Romana out of existence?

@nix.nightbird @dr.rocketscience @step5555 River is important... she's Susan's grandmother.

 She fixes the timeline, thank you very much.

@dr.rocketscience @step5555 

I LOVE River Song. I've been into Doctor Who since the early 1980s, and I still absolutely love her. 

I think most of the River haters are just upset that the "no girls allowed" sign has been removed from the TARDIS console. 

@PCabezuelo @Canadian.Scott @step5555 

@step5555 Well, since no one else has, I'll be the one to say it: I disagree with everything you said. Seriously, that was 0-for-5. Actually, -1-for-5, since you didn't even at least qualify point 1 as a Canon Sue.

But that's ok, cause you see, she's still on the show, so I get what I want. :-P

@Canadian.Scott @step5555 5555 hit on some of my dislike but I would also like to add a few more:

1) Don't mind that she knows more than the Doctor - at first. That makes sense given that we are meeting her in reverse and she has knowledge about the Doctor that he doesn't. The problem is there should have come a point where the Doctor knows more than HER - and this never happened. In fact, Moffat has abandoned the whole meeting her in reverse thing so now there's no rhyme or reason to when she pops up or from where in her timeline.

2) The revelation that she's Amy and Rory's daughter (as well as the astronaut) fell flat for me. I realize mileage may vary on this but I found them to be so anticlimactic I was certain it was a bluff and not the truth - alas, no. Ditto for finding out "hey wait, she really WAS the Doctor's wife". Yawn.

3) The retroactive inclusion of the Mels character.

4) Her sudden decision that the Doctor is a good guy and not worth killing (despite being conditioned for years to hate him). This is specific to the Let's Kill Hitler episode. She just switches with no real reason - very unconvincing. And this ties in to:

5) We're told over and over and over again how much she loves the Doctor to the point where she's willing to sacrifice the entire space/time continuum...and yet I'm not convinced. And the reason is we're never shown why and how she falls in love with the Doctor. One minute she hates him, the next BAM she's in love with him for all eternity. Weak.

6) She's been involved in all the major things that have happened to the 11th Doctor thus far. I may be wrong, but I think this is unprecedented on the show, to have the Doctor tied so closely to one character. Heck, even Rose was completely absent for one season. Matt's Doctor has been largely defined by his relationship with River and I think this is ....wrong. Moffat should have got rid of her after season 6 - her story's done, move on.

I'm sure there's plenty more reasons why I hate her but those are the ones that come top of mind.

@Canadian.Scott  @step5555 She was a pretty mediocre actress on ER, and that's the type of thing that she'd specialise in.  Heck, my wife hated her on Upstairs Downstairs without any prior knowledge of her - she just said "she can't act" after about two scenes.

I don't know who these people are who want the Doctor to be put in his place, but you have to have a reason for that to happen.  Tom Baker's version was an arrogant (but lovable) bastard, so having someone one-up him worked from a storytelling standpoint.  But Smith's character isn't nearly that arrogant, and therefore doesn't need someone making him look bad at every opportunity.  She did sort of work at the tail end of Tennant's tenure, because the point of that last run was that he was getting too arrogant.  But even there, the character read more like wish fulfillment for a kid than something intended to work on a long term basis.

The age thing isn't *too* bad, but even if she was 30 she wouldn't have the chemistry with the lead actor that's needed.

@step5555 I would disagree she isn't a very good actress but your point about chemistry with Matt Smith, i would agree with.  Matt Smith is 30 and Alex Kingston is 50 so there is definitely a disconnect there.  

And I did agree that her being Amy and Rory's kid messed up the show.  The Mary Sue thing, i can see that but then again people have been clamoring for someone to one up the doctor since Romana.

@rabidronnie No, I can go for this. May not enter head-canon, but it's at least as good as the "Ace is Susan regenerated" theory* that spread through fandom after Season 25 and before Season 26 killed it.

*Which was the center[piece of my "if they did a reboot we didn't need" creative exercise many a Moon (heh heh) ago, where I re-imagined the show as a BTAS style remake. It lead to Ace being the adopted daughter of a UNIT solidier the new 3rd  Doctor takes in, along with nosy reporter Sarah Jane, leading to a Trial remake which ends with the Master revealing Ace is Susan regenerated and (in a failed attempt) used against the Doctor.

@step5555 @LJDarten @rabidronnie @Canadian.Scott yeah still dont know how so many of us (me included) missed that name connection. couldn't have made it any easier without naming her amy williams. i think maybe we all caught it subconsciously but dismissed it before giving it any conscious thought because it was too obvious.

@LJDarten@rabidronnie@Canadian.Scott "can't find anyway to turn that into Clara Oswin Oswald."

 They turned "Melody Pond" into "River Song" (well, I think they did, the worldwide vomiting kinda drowned it out), so it's not as though they couldn't handwave it if they needed to.

@Timely-Tardis-Lego Everything is better with Captain Jack...even wibbly, wobbly, timely, whimly stuff!

@LJDarten @rabidronnie I think this is the best story to go with, we know she has time lord abilities to regenerate so to think she could change her appearance would be great.  Although that does not explain two very obvious deaths with no regeneration.  I think this is the Master sending a message to the Doctor leading to a great crescendo for the 50th Anniversary. 

@rabidronnie @LJDarten @Canadian.Scott I knew that clever girl line meant something but couldn't place it except thinking river had said it.

it is an interesting idea that the girl is "raised" by river then for some reason leaves it for the real world. and so could come to the doctor knowing even more about river in her final days.

Incidentally the little girls name was Charlotte Abigail Lux, can't find anyway to turn that into Clara Oswin Oswald. I had to look up her name.

.it's funny all the little things you notice once you've had the big reveal and look back, like how many references there were to the doctor and river being married (river knocks out the doctor to sacrifice herself in his place, when he says "that's my job" she says "what im not allowed to have a career?")

@rabidronnie Your theory is much better than mine. Mine was Captain Jack had a one night stand with the time vortex, and the time vortex had triplets. And all those are mentally linked as far as personality goes.

Now that I say it out loud....Your's is much better. 

It's my new headcanon now.

@LJDarten @rabidronnie @Canadian.Scott I wish they wouldn't pretend it didn't happen, though!  SUCH a great rabbit trail to follow in the future. . . Unfortunately Georgia Moffet (or Mrs. David Tennant) is just about to/just finished having another baby, so something tells me she won't be in the acting game for a while.

I think the girl from the library explanation appeals to me because it kind of completes the "family" dynamic they've been exploring with the Doctor over the past few seasons, with River and the Ponds.  He loses River, he already knows he's going to lose her.  He lost the Ponds.  The girl from the library is, in a weird and roundabout way, his daughter, since River raises her in the computerverse.  It would be interesting.

Also the parallels (besides physical) are uncanny o.o the girl from the library is heard to say "aren't I a clever girl?" and Clara (as Oswin) speaks of how brilliant she is, and of course uses her signature line "Run you clever boy."  Other relevant parallel: Right before dying, River says to the Doctor "you and me, time and space, you watch us run."  Embarking on his quest to find Clara, the Doctor's words are "watch me run."  In a show that often uses foreshadowings like these as future plot bunnies, I can't think all of that is a coincidence.

Also I may have thought entirely too much about this :\