Thank goodness this (alleged) sort of thing doesn't happen more often. You'd never see M. Night Shyamalan ripping off some young adult novel (one called, say, Running Out of Time) to make some crappy flick called The Village. Whew.

And Ellison may be a nut....but he's a nut that makes royalties for a movie he never worked on.

Why does this news humor me so much? I really think it has to do with the hype Cameron has been putting out aboutt his movie and all that.

Eh, it happens.

I have to say, for all the hype this movie got, the trailers just continue to underwhelm me. Maybe this is the God of Cinema's way of making it up to me.

Dumbass Cameron should've made the Hiroshima movie like he originally planned.

Well he's in good company w/ Disney and Simba isn't he.
Rip off Hall of Fame?

I gotta say ... I don't get it? Who cares? It's James Cameron ... has he even been relevant since T2? Has he done anything anyone wants to watch? Who cares if a hackneyed director is doing another hackneyed movie?

I thought the Avatar sounded familiar and now know that I read that story as a kid!

That's not a spoiler, that was totally obvious from the first trailer. Noble Savage Defeats Evil Empire - that's all you need to know about Avatar. We've seen it before, on Endor, with Ewoks.

I don't think I'll be caring all that much about this film. No one in Hollywood has done anything creative in at least a decade, if not much longer.

And he was already ripping off Dances with Wolves as it is...

Is there ANYTHING unique about this movie?

When I first saw the 2 photos at the top I thought, "Big deal, it's just a random book cover that kind of looks like a creature from Avatar, this is really reaching." But man, the story comparison sounds a lot like when Disney ripped off Kimba the White Lion's story, including imagery, the side characters and plot devices.

I imagine James Cameron as the idea-deprived boss in a brainstorming meeting.

James: "We need some great storyline ideas now. What about [insert shit idea here]?"

Lowly peon: "That's a great idea Cameron. I was also reading this book where [insert Avatar's storyline here]. Maybe we could do something like that."

James: "You're an idiot... ... Wait, I've got a great idea, what about we do something like [insert Avatar's storyline here}? It's genius!"

The Jupiter creatures were developed by Humans. He's the first one, a test run. And he forces the space station to send in the rest. And he becomes one, abandoning his human body.

They aren't "native lifeforms"
They're artificial Human-created to settle Jupiter.

For anyone who says "Who Cares?" I hope you mean "Who cares about Cameron." As for the story, IF he ripped this off it really does matter. Writers don't make squat and they make even less from short stories. If a director can't make up a compelling tale on his own, let him share the wealth with the people who can. The writers who plug away writing this stuff absolutely deserve the credit and $$$ for their creativity and effort.

Ellison is a "nutcase"? He can be a jerk I guess, but I wouldn't dismiss him as a nutcase. He vigorously defends his copyrights, and doesn't give a damn about Hollywood politics. And read some of his legendary work before writing him off.
Story ideas have been ripped off since day one -- not that there's any excuse for that, but I don't think Cameron is the worst offender.

"About the most originality that any writer can hope to achieve honestly is to steal with good judgment."
--Josh Billings

There's also some similarity to a Timothy Zahn novel titled "Manta's Gift" about a paraplegic protagonist who gets his consciousness transplanted into an alien on Jupiter...

not near worse than J K Rowling ripping off Willy the Wizard, a boy wizard who attends a school to learn magic. The agent of the author who wrote Willy the Wizard later went on to represent... guess who... J K Rowling.

"It's James Cameron ... has he even been relevant since T2? Has he done anything anyone wants to watch?"

There was that little indy flick called Titanic. I hear that did okay.

It's Kimba/Simba all over again but in space. I also smell a lanswit coming against the blue smurfs.

I second Geoff here. There's a lot of Cameron hate out there, but do you fellow geeks seriously hate on the films like "Terminator", "Terminator 2", and "Aliens"?

Sure this might be Cameron's moment to fuck up and fall. It can always happen, but am I the only one who sees a pattern of beating the odds here?

Just a few examples:

1. Terminator is amazing and is basically a b-movie. Beginner's luck, right? Remember how awesome "Terminator 2" was the first time you watched it? Remember how it paved the way for CGI in films? Spielberg credits as influencing his decision to use CGI in Jurassic Park. Both "T2" and "Jurassic Park" have effects that stand up better then most films today. Watch them.

2. Second is "Aliens". Not only do we have a brilliant sequel, which like "T2" is considered better then the original by many, but the dude designed the Queen Alien! He manages to make "Aliens" something Ridley Scott and H.R. Giger could be proud of!

3. No matter what you think of "Titanic" as a film, it made a shit load of money and the anti-Cameron buzz out there today reminds me of all the things that we're said as more and more money was put in to "Titanic". Then everyone had to eat their words as they stood in line for tickets. Also, he built a life size "Titanic" that had details like specific china dishes and wallpaper to match the original vessel. Do you not recognize the geek here?

Say what you will. "Avatar" will have to stand on it's own on opening day. I'm just saying, this guy has proved naysayers wrong before and brought some truly awesome things in to geek stratosphere.

Didn't he say the idea of Avatar came from every SCIFI book he read as a kid? Though this one in particular might be the sole inspiration behind it.

Meh, I hate how everybody's so quick to sue and I'm all for loosening copyright laws. Because fact is, absolutely nobody writes original stories and it's virtually impossible not to reference other stories.

Although it sounds like Cameron adapted Avatar from this sci-fi story. If he does get a lawsuit, I'm sure he has more than enough money to pay it off.

I am with you Bryant. Cameron has made some badass movies, you did forget True Lies and The Abyss which are also enjoyable.

Based on Camerons track record this movie will be all sorts of awesome.

I learned this concept a few years ago, I was skeptical of every Pixar picture that came out but every year I loved the movie after I forced myself to go see it. Now I welcome any Pixar picture until their is a bad one. I have applied this same logic to Cameron, eventhough he is an asshole his pictures demand respect.

@ the titanic comment :

yup and look how well that turned out , the bat almost sank the boat =]

Alien +2 are the ones that really matter , only because big mama bug is hinted at (with the eggs ) in part 1. and makes her debut in 2.

Terminator , Judgement day ,and Salvation ( T1, T2, T3) and lets forget bout the shitstorm not associated with good plot/creator approval.

Bryant said:

>

i notice you didnt mention the garbage that came before sarah connor chronicles ROFL , dont worry no one ever does ;)

I remember another story as well, although I can't remember who wrote it or what the title is. A guy was an explorer of alien species (on different worlds). His consciousness was put into an artificial body that mimicked the form of whatever species he went to study. There was a bug-like species, a species with rhino horns, and a species of egg-shaped balls that spun webs. In the end he also decided to remain a member of one of those species. I know I read that story quite a while ago (maybe 20 years) so as others have said, the idea is out there and certainly not new. Whether Poul Anderson actually owns that idea is the question. If James Cameron's story isn't an exact ripoff of Anderson, there are probably other writers who would come forward to claim it.

I'm not sure (b/c I haven't been interested in James Cameron since he announce he was doing Titanic), but I thought the movie was supposed to be a homage to classic scifi. I'll admit that this seems to go beyond basic tribute to rip-off, but it seems along the same vein.

I guess what I'm saying is from what I've briefly heard of the movie, I never really expected an original story.

True Lies was a fun movie. I think that came after T2. James Cameron is a good action director, but I don't go wild for him. I prefer T1 to T2. I prefer Ridley Scott's Alien to James Cameron's Aliens. So other than the named films, I really do not think he's some kind of film god.

If it's original stories you want, then Hollywood is the last place you should be looking...

And there's no way you can bitch about Ellison - Cameron took his ideas and put them in a film without any credit. No wonder he got sued man!

@ Nat-Wu

Are you thinking of the Cluster series, by Piers Anthony?
A technology is developed that can shoot a person's mind into a disabled (read, braindead) body on another planet without regard for distance or time. However, the strength of one's own soul determines how long you can stay in the host body before being absorbed. The missions involved spreading the technology to outposts throughout the universe, but was often derailed by the various antagonists becoming involved in the politics of whatever planet they landed on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_(novels)

And here I thought it was just a ripoff of Battle For Terra.

Should've stuck with Battle Angel Alita... :/

Should've stuck with Battle Angel Alita... :/

All in all, this doesn't surprise me. Hollywood writing has been utter tripe for a long time now. They need to let some fresh (and actually creative) faces into the mix.

@jaganar

Er, are you referring to Dark Knight's total returns against Titanic's totals? Cause, if so, Dark Knight didn't even come close, nor has any other movie in worldwide gross at the box office.

You could say they've done the exact opposite of what the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise has done with buying the rights to 'On Stranger Tides' (even though they're only using the very basic bits of it), they're being cautious. More people, including Cameron, should take up this practice and we could avoid things like this.

@Nicnac: This, "a boy wizard who attends a school to learn magic," is not something that can be copyrighted. Willy's appearance can be. His school's appearance can be. The actual events of the story, the plot itself, can be. But the basic idea, the jumping off point where a story begins, of "a boy wizard who attends a school to learn magic" can not copyrighted.

Why? Because as has already been implied by the above comments, or flatly stated, there are really no new ideas. There are new spins, new approaches, different takes, but there are no new ideas. There haven't been for years. The old ideas just get updated. We're not talking about inventions, we're talking about stories. And the similarities between what we know of Avatar and Poul Anderson's story... well... they're very striking. Incredibly striking. But perhaps Cameron was merely inspired by the book, or one similar?

Rob's right: It all hinges on the ending.

Eh, if you're going to rip somebody off, you can do much worse than a Poul Anderson book.

And in the great year 2009, what truly original stories are left to tell anyway?

That said, I predict Avatar is still going to suck balls.

"Shel said:

Should've stuck with Battle Angel Alita... :/"

THIS x 1000.

Gee, considering it's the greatest movie of all time Avatar sure does blow

Man, hating on James Cameron is lame as hell. Man's made some awesome movies. He's excited about his new one and so he's hyping it up. WELP BETTER RIP HIM TO SHREDS FOR IT!

That said the Avatar merchandise display at my local Target has remained static since they put it up. I don't think a single piece has sold.

"Because as has already been implied by the above comments, or flatly stated, there are really no new ideas."

I never cease to be amazed when I hear things like this. There are always new ideas. It simply takes people who believe they can exist to discover them. People who assume it's all been said and done are the sort of people who rarely do and say anything. Ideas don't run out, they don't end. They're not finite and there will always be new ones to discover. It takes people who can see things differently to find them, because those who can't are too busy assuring themselves it's not worth trying.

People who say "it's all been done before" are just giving themselves permission to not bother trying.

@ Nat Wu

Sounds like A Miracle of Rare Design by Mike Resnick. Been About 12 years since I read it so i guess it's time for a reread.

Jimmy Suggs said:

People who say "it's all been done before" are just giving themselves permission to not bother trying.

@ Jimmy Suggs

Including The Beatles?

Just joking, but seriously, study theater, film, storytelling... it's all telling the same stories over and over with the same characters/archetypes. It's not to say something can't be original in it's creativity, but you can see inspiration, from what's come before, in all forms of art.

I'm kind of embarrassed. All this time I'd been assuming that James Cameron was doing a live-action Avatar: The Last Airbender.

I was also assuming that a live-action Avatar would be less of a disaster than a live-action Akira or Dragonball Z,

Poul Anderson is (was) awesome. That should be the main point to be taken from all of this.

It's also pretty amusing how many people are spouting the tired "Hollwyood is out of ideas" meme. There are plenty of good movies and TV shows coming out -- you're just not watching them (there's also a healthy does of irony to using a well-worn meme to accuse *other* people of lacking creativity).

As for James Cameron: he's made some great movies. This one doesn't look like one of them, but we'll see when it comes out I guess.

@Who is Good Will?-
Actually I seem to recall having seen trailers for a live action 'Avatar: The Last Airbender' movie back when I saw 'Bruno' in theaters, unless it was an incredibly vivid dream. Also I believe it was being directed by M. Night Shyamalan. (Please correct me if I'm wrong). Unfortunately it looked pretty bad.

Apparently K.A. Applgate was inspired by Call Me Joe too. The alien on the cover looks almost exactly like an Andalite from the Animorphs series!

Actually, if this IS a pass of the Poul Anderson book, well Praise God, it'll be something interesting and unusual for a Hollywood film. Unless all the core meat gets lost in the need to present MESSAGE and all that nonsense.

And maybe someday we'll get some nice crunchy SF in the theaters that's from a book written within the last 30 years, huh? :)

@Marjorie

Yeah, at first I thought Avatar Na'Vi looked ALOT like andalites too! But that book clarifies even more the blue centaurs.

I liked James Cameron fine until Dark Angel came along. Just because you rip off a comic very few English-speakers even know about (Cybersix, by Carlo Meglia and Carlos Trillo), that doesn't mean no one will notice. The creators were considering legal action, but unfortunately/fortunately nothing ever came of it. Probably because Dark Angel got cancelled due to sucking.

Ever since then, I haven't exactly been a Cameron fan. I'm not surprised someone else is crying "rip-off."

How are you not sure that Cameron didn't buy the rights to the book?

@JimmySuggs:

Thanks for quoting me without attribution, like they were just words overheard in a crowd. But, anyway, Bryant's response is precisely what I was saying in my post, or trying to say. I wasn't jumping on the "nothing is original" bandwagon. But if you study film, literature, art, theater, and all along the spectrum of art/media, you will easily see that every new story is just an older story with new clothes. I never said this was a bad thing. If anything, I think it's great, because it challenges creative people to be even moreso. So, again, there are NO new ideas. Ideas ARE finite. But creativity and originality, whether in style, meaning, or execution, is infinite. Add up all the people who are alive today, all the people who have lived in the past, and all the people who will ever live in the future-- that's how far creativity can span. But we're all inspired by what's come before. This is not a bad thing.

You really need to make a tshirt with some cool picture and FUCK AND YES as the caption, thats your best exclamation to anything on here

Jeff — I actually stole "Fuck and yes" wholesale from Drew Magary of KissingSuzyKolber.com. I meant to just spread it around because it was awesome, and now people think it's mine. And I feel bad.

not only is AVATAR cobbled together from several sources, but i think the most shameful thing is that after having created new interesting fonts for his other movie titles, they seemingly use a 3d windows screensaver and the hideous free common font PAPYRUS for the avatar title.

@Cthulhu's minion:
Yes, exactly, thank you. Guess I don't remember it that well. I thought it was pretty decent.

@LAO:
Thanks for the reply, but it's the Resnick story. However, that sounds kind of cool. I've read a lot of Piers Anthony (liked most of it), but I'd never heard of that series.

Anyway, that just proves that this idea has been done quite a few times in quite a few different ways. Despite the similarities to the Poul Anderson story, it may just be a passing resemblance.

You guys hating on the movie are freaking LAME!!! You havent even seen the damn thing yet, I smell bitterness.

Thanks. I was going slowly crazy trying to remember the title of the story I read when I was a kid. "Call me Joe" is it, on the head. Cameron's disingenuous interviews saying that his inspiration was "every pulp science fiction novel ever written" was a little too broad. I will probably go and see the thing, but I will be thinking of Poul Anderson the whole time. I hope his estate gets a cut.

Vic

Avatar is the best movie i've ever seen! It's totally amazing and breath-taking! There will never be a movie as good as this. and to all the people who are talking smack about how much the movie is over-rated and it sucks and you can get this from the trailer and blah blah blah. Maybe you should watch it first. People just blow my mind at how close-minded and stupid they can be. Nothing makes me angrier than stupid people judging and commenting badly about a great movie they've never even seen! Get a life and some respect.
-daulton

Avatar was the best movie you've ever seen? Was Glitter and Mortal Kombat: Annihilation the only other movies you've seen? Avatar was awful. All style no substance.
Boring, generic plot.
AWFUL, often times cheesy dialogue.
Predictable sequencing.
Unbelievable, annoying characters. The evil army general is cliche, the angry lead scientist and all the rest are unlikable. And the main character, for a marine, has the absolute worst case of ADD I have ever seen. Dude, they said stay still. What the hell are you doing freaking touching plants and fighting rhino.

All and all plain bad. And not even original.

Interestingly, I had a strong feeling watching the movie that I "knew" the story
already. So I went back and did a little research, and found what I was
remembering. There is a two book series by the well known SciFi writer Andre
Norton, from the early 1960's called "Judgement on Janus" and "Victory on Janus"
that have a lot of the same story elements and main plot of Avatar. For
example:

1.Humans come to a forest planet and try to destroy the forest.
2.Humans are changed into natives who have green skin, and long pointy ears.
3.The natives live in gigantic trees, with multiple roots and trunks and many
levels of rooms.
4. The natives communicate with and bond with a large bird partner.
5.The natives religion in a earth connected nature preserving power
6. The Earthmen destroy the main tree home of the natives.
7. The local plants glow at night to provide illumination.
8. The natives weaponry is bow and arrow, and spear throwing.
etc, etc. etc.

Its a pretty strong resemblance, although there are a lot of other story
elements missing, like the Vietnam references.

There are parallels in Avatar to innumerable other stories, and not just within the F&SF field. "Last Samurai". Disney's "Pocahantas". What makes Avatar a compelling story -- for all that it is about Conqueror's Guilt -- are the details, and the way it was told. Humanity's primary asset, our very adaptability, the way we can assimilate and be assimilated in order to survive, makes for great story fodder. Authors such as CJ Cherryh have made careers out of such examination. I also recommend all you go look up and read a Spider Robinson short story, "Melancholy Elephants", which examines the nature of Creativity versus Copyright. There is "nothing new under the sun" because there is a finite (large, but *finite*) number of ways that words, musical notes, or materials can be assembled -- and of that finite number, only a certain percentage will be *enjoyable*...

gee whiz...the creature on the cover of Poul Anderson's book looks sooo innovative and unique. he didn't borrow any of HIS key concepts from anyone else, right? Does that mean you think he invented centaurs?