Didn't Rob "Needs MOAR Pouches" Liefeld create Shatterstar? How Is SS even still around, he's always been made with fail.

yeah, didn't see this coming...
and while dc is rocking the a/b-list lesbians, don't forget that marvel has phyla-vell and moondragon lesbian love going. um wait...yeah, not really a-list there either. or b-list. i mean, moondragon? really? she up there with dr. druid. which if he's not gay, he's good at faking it.

Yeah, DC may have more high-profile gays, but I think Marvel wins on sheer numbers.

Actually I think Marvel has been more natural with the addition of it's gay and lesbian characters. DC has forced it yet made a much bigger deal about it. Marvel has done a better job characterizing and introducing sexuality to characters and letting them grow into important characters. Making a "new" Batwoman and a "new" Question (out of an existing gay character) and tagging them as Gay is not impressive. Finding characters within your universe and finding things in their personalities and back stories that support their new "outed" sexuality is more impressive to me.

Rictor has slept with numerous women BTW, not sure if he is truly a "Gay" character yet.

DC uses hot lesbians while Marvel uses gay men and women among their lower-tiered characters. I think Marvel is the more "realistic" with this approach. Personally, I have never known hot lesbians....but guys will be more than eager to read comics with them in it.

DC is just using hot lesbians to sell more issues is all.

But what really gets me is that Marvel has a penchant for turning established hetero characters. I think all of the characters from Marvel so far except the teens and Phyla-Vell, were all at one time in hetero relationships.

I know that Renee "Question" Montoya was assumed to be straight in the comics, but that was never actually established before she was outed, was it?

I guess. Lesbians are way more palatable to the standard nerd than male homosex.

Not that he's all that much more high profile, but I'd say Colosseus being gay in Ultimate X-men is at least slightly higher profile than the above examples of marvel open-mindedness

Mystique surely qualifies as a high profile Bisexual character though? One of the X-Mens primary villains.

These are all good points. I really don't know who is doing the better job, frankly.

I must say, after so much douchebaggery regarding the TF2 reviews, I'm delighted to have an intelligent conversation on homosexuality in comics on TR.

Well, you also have The Authority from DC. As I remember, Midnighter and Apollo made a couple. You could say they loosely represent Batman and Superman.

Ar'nt evryone dressing up in tights gay? Nah, just kidding. I know nothing about gay people/mutants/things in comics.

DC had Flash-Rogue/Sometimes-Hero Pied Piper out of the closet for a while now. Unfortunately, they used his sexuality as a cheap excuse for terrible jokes in the execrable Countdown. One step forward, two steps back.

after all is said and done, what does it matter? personally have not problem with homosexual characters in comics if a) it is pertinant to their background/development; b) relevant to the story; or c) or done with taste. the problem is that most people don't view homosexuality as anything "tasteful" which may account why marvel hits up the new and younger characters or the b-list and below characters. basically, maybe they don't trust their core audience enough to be open-minded and hits up these other characters which generally already have an alternative lifestyle following (just my observations from the years i worked in comic shops)

while dc may have a stonger feeling that their audience is open-minded enough to except higher tier characters as homosexual. but still, you'll notice that its new and altered characters, not mainstays, as if they don't wont to upset older fans of long running characters.

just my 2 cents...

Well they are not top tier, but then again in Marvel the top tier is really only about 6 people. That and I don't see batwoman and the new question as being top tier. BUt the whole shatterstar and rictor thing has been hinted at for a long time. The fact they finally did it is interesting, does not matter to me because I dropped pretty much all the X-Titles years ago.

Shatterstar does look kind of sad now, at least before he looked like a B.A even with the topknot.

I agree with Dave B to an extent--it feels like DC is forcing "teh gay" on characters because every single guy likes a hot lesbian, right? */partialsarcasm*. I think this has to do with how the two companies try to sell coimcs. Marvel, for the most part, keeps with established characters and try to make it work when sales are down, whereas DC has a tendency to toss them when they're not selling anymore and replace them with newer, hipper superheroes. This makes it more difficult for Marvel to force "teh gay" on say Iron Man or Captain America. Daken, the new (Dark) Wolverine, is presumed to be bisexual, and he's slowly becoming a major player in the Dark Reign (although my theory is he's fucking around with everyone to piss them off and he's actually asexual and doesn't want to actually fuck anyone). So Marvel is slowly introducing characters that are gay.

And the part you said about the young people catching "teh gay," it's not that--as a young person I think it's just the environment we grew up in. Homosexuality (to a certain degree) is acceptable now. Well, more than it ever was in the past, so young people don't feel the same pressure older generations did when coming out. So having young gay characters in a comic geared towards young people isn't a bad idea--it's good marketing, it's natural, and it just makes sense.

RE: Ultimate Colussus--
I don't know that a second-tier character in a secondary universe of stories can be considered any more visable as a character than Shatterstar or Rictor.

I think both companies are playing it pretty safe from a fan-pleasing point of view. I can imagine the uproar if either company tried to take an established A-list character and say, 'Oh, no, they're gay. They were just hiding it for the last forty years of continuity. Gay the whole time. Super swear.' (Although, frankly, I'm somewhat surprised Marvel hasn't taken that approach, what with the constant retcons.) So I kind of think DC has taken the high road a little bit, by introducing new upper-tier characters instead of forcing a new character attribute on established characters. Why always with the lesbians? It's possible that they don't want to be called bigots for introducing a gay male super hero who... you know... prances around at night in latex and spandex.

Isn't Karma from the former New Mutants gay? I think it's possible Marvel is just working through the entire list of people who appeared in NM and making them all gay. (Shatterstar and Rictor? Hmm... they both had mullets at some point. Maybe it's just be-mulleted characters we need to watch out for.)

For the life of me I can not remember what shatterstars mutant power is. I just remember him being good with that 2 bladed sword.

Well, these two have been unofficially gay (for each other) since the early 90's, so it isn't like Marvel just picked two lower-tier characters and did this to them. Fans have been saying that for years (I'm surprised the last panel wasn't someone saying "I knew it!")

There's also Obsidian, the son of the Golden Age Green Lantern, who is gay. He even got a boyfriend in Manhunter. He is a C-Lister, but he is part of an A-List team the JSA.

"Yeah, it's me, dude." LOL

Wow, I almost remember hearing the name Shatterstar once when I was twelve. My world has been rocked. Truly, as a gay comics reader, I now feel a sense of validation. Maybe some day I can grow up and be a back-up superhero too!

And I have never picked up an issue of the new Batwoman, but I do seem to remember there was a commotion made of how, "oh look, she's NOT wearing hooker heels, what a positive female character she must be."

As far as the whole 'introducing gay characters' vs. 'outing them' is concerned, I am slightly in favor of the former. In a universe like Marvel, which puts SO much emphasis on its ridiculous origin stories and convoluted history, retconning girlfriends to make things more PC is a bit ridiculous. And the characters who have never made their heterosexuality overt are few, minor, and usually kind of pathetic. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for bisexual characters. Give Professor X a boyfriend. Have Mary Jane get with a lady the next time her marriage is sold to the devil. Just do it with tact?

@Aeon
Ohhhh, that might mean a gay cypher zombie!

Batwoman is a well-rounded character who just happens to be gay. She's also an A-List character.

I realize Marvel Zombies don't read any DC books and just make crap up on a fairly routine basis, but anyone that read Detective Comics already knows this.

@emerson999 now THAT'S a comic worth reading. Gay zombies? Get Krikman on the phone, I have an idea for Walking Dead.

As for the whole DC vs Marvel thing, I think both are trying to go about differently but Marvel seems to be taking it more naturally without the PR that DC is using. I mean, it's taken what? 2 years since Batwoman was announced?

DC's Tasmanian Devil (Global Guardians) came out in Justice League Quarterly #8

Batwoman is an A-lister? Since when? DC introduced her in 52 and then promptly sat on their butts for 2 years doing little with her. She's not A-list. Nobody in the Batman family outside of Batman and maybe Robin is an A-lister.

not suprized at all for marvel has hinted at that more and more x characters would soon be coming out of the closet in upcoming storylines. as for Mystique given that she is a shape shifter always figured her as bi since her true love was destiny. as for dc at least they are willing to see that gay characters are part of their universe too where marvel has a habbit of making gay characters wind up with bad fates

I am so glad Rictor is gay. Had the hots for him for ages. He is one of the better parts of X-Factor. Actually X-Factor in general is one of the better parts of Marvel.

He used to be a mutant with earth moving abilities. His abilities could be measured on the rictor scale... get it... earth quake man is rictor.

He and Rogue had a thing in X-Men Evolution for a while. But when you think about it Rogue is kind of butch.

Shatterstar... well i dont have any distinct fan-boy memories of him. but will google.

Not surprised, since the "Richter

As a gay comic geek, it was frustrating to see the issue drawn out for more than 10 years before it became official/canon. Then again, it took 15 years for Northstar to come out, and almost 25 for Obsidian, so maybe I shouldn't complain.

Oh c'mon! Marvel has Professor X and Magneto, the old gay married couple par excellence of the comic book world!

...

What do you mean "They're not gay"? Seriously? Did you READ that series they had together in Genosha? The subtext in that was so dense, it had it's own gravitational pull!

Damnit! My first paragraph get chopped off! Here's what WAS SUPPOSED to show...
"Not surprised, since the "Richtor

That's great!
The first and only time I took my brother to the comic store, he wanted to buy some $5 graphic novels. I told him to go for it and he combed the boxes and picked a copy of Bone he hadn't read and another book I'd never heard of. I combed it for nudity and the like and it was fine.
He's in the car reading it and he starts crying. Because he got a book written by and with lesbians. And I started crying and wouldn't talk to about it with him because I was so upset. He spent the whole way home saying how much he hated lesbians and how he wanted to burn the book.
In the end, I bought the book off of him for 10 dollars. 5 more than he paid. And I keep it on my special bookshelf where I only keep books I truly love.

For his birthday this year, I got him the first trade of Runaways. The character isn't revealed as gay until later on in the series, and I'm hoping that by the time I buy him that book, he has become too involved with character and story to care about wether or not a character is gay or straight.

My paragraph got chopped again? FUCK THIS SHIT!

"Not surprised, since the "Richtor loves Shatterstar" thing has been hinted at since they were in X-Force together, and the writer at the time (Peter David, I think?) confirmed it.

"fell said:
Well, you also have The Authority from DC. As I remember, Midnighter and Apollo made a couple."

I'm pretty sure that when Midnighter and Apollo were outed Wildstorm was still owned by Jim Lee and published through image. DC bought the title and the imprint well after both characters were an established couple.

Also the Shatterstar thing isn't very surprising. This is one of those character swerves that totally makes sense. Some one asked about his mutant power. I'm pretty sure Shatterstar doesn't qualify as a mutant. He's from the same mojoverse Longshot is from, so he's more of an alien mutant if anything.

Midnighter and Apollo are the most deliciously "canon" gay couple in comics. They were cleverly written with hints and prods until they were outed. Marvel has a pretty good lesbian couple with Quasar and Moondragon. Good ol' Destiny and Mystique served as a lesbian couple before Marvel could admit to it.

Man, that art for that comic looks TERRIBLE.

@Katie: You handled that very well, and i'm glad you're trying to help him to be more open-minded. The $1,000,000 question is, from where or whom did he pick up this "lesbians are bad" bullshit? I would find out and nip it in the bud...the sooner, the better!
BTW, what was the book you bought from him? Strangers in Paradise? Maggie and Hopey? Dykes To Watch Out For?

Funny thing. The only Shatterstar story I can ever remember reading had him and some of the X-Force guys trying to rescue his *wife*; Wingsong. Of course, they were both from Mojoworld so wife = female with whom his genetic stock will be mixed.

Surprise, surprise, I don't think she ever showed up again after that story.

Anyway, I don't really have any feelings about this revelation one way or the other. Though I'm not surprised that Peter David went in that direction with the characters. It fits his writing style.

Thanks.
He picked up the lesbians are bad from Catholic School. And sports. And a little bit of my father.
The book he bought was Jane's World vol. 1 and if he has picked up Strangers in Paradise I would have put it right back.

I was pretty pissed off at this. Two character who've never shown any signs of homosexuality despite their incredibly queer costumes despite to gay-out on each other after 16 or so years. WTF? I use to like Shatterstar, and thought he'd be able to make it further in the comics than he did, but now I don't know. Rictor still sucks.

@ PostMarque:
In X-Men: Evolution, you're thinking of Avalanche and Shadowcat.

I never really followed X-Force, or Peter David's 'original' X-Factor run- but I definitely thought "that's guy's name is Shatterstar?! Fucking Awesome." when I was (much) younger.

Madrox, and now X-Factor, are usually the best read from Marvel for me...and this 'outing' doesn't really upset me...

Except! Rictor has had 'relations' with Rahne...and he really liked her, no? So maybe he's bi- they didn't clarify anything regarding Rictor's or Shatterstar's sexuality (though, I thought Strong Guy's comment was some 4th-wall-breaking sarcasm, as many fans have been saying they were gay), so I'm guessing it'll probably be explained next issue.

...not that people should Have to 'explain' their sexuality, but as a reader, it's annoying when a)things happen without context/with Devil-Deals, and then are not clarified (I know that older fans 'suspected' something, but I didn't read those issues/runs), b) "Teh Gay!" is introduced just to be introduced- as in, "see? we have another GAY character! Isn't that Great!?! BuY My Book!" (

(ending of last comment was cut off)
..."Buy My Book!" (

and finally, c)when bisexuality isn't considered a 'real' possibility- there's enough of that garbage in the Actual LGBTQ and Hetero/Mainstream communities, so reading something that depicts otherwise would be refreshing.

Here's hoping for next issue!

and finally, c)when bisexuality isn't considered a 'real' possibility

"Yea, it's me dude."

Wow, how affectionate!

@Bill yeah, you're right. That explains why I was confused about Rictor for the longest time and then just deciding to make up my on story line.

Which is why I love Pixie. My version of Pixie in my head is so much better.

do you know how she came back to life after getting killed?

@Bill yeah, you're right. That explains why I was confused about Rictor for the longest time and then just deciding to make up my on story line.

Which is why I love Pixie. My version of Pixie in my head is so much better.

do you know how she came back to life after getting killed?

Well, Rictor did joke earlier in the run that he was bi (causing Madrox to do a spittake). Guess it wasn't a joke.

For extra irony points, Madrox then made a joke about how this'd affect his relationship with Shatterstar...

Not to sound cynical, but keep in mind that comic books are an industry, and like every other industry, they have to keep selling their books to survive. So what's the next big thing? Marketing to "minorities"... which means characters who are gay for the sake of selling books, not because the character or story requires it.

"I'm all for bisexual characters... Just do it with tact?"

Um, this is the comic-book industry, where nothing is done with tact. Every month, companies compete to see who can have the biggest earth-shattering event of no consequence: "The next must-read comic!!! Clark Kent takes off his glasses!!!"
"In this issue, Spider-Man fights Doc Ock!!!! Who will win!!!!"
"This issue changes everything! Really it does, no really. It changes everything until the next writer ret-cons out our changes."

Rictor's BEEN gay for a while. It's not news.

And shat... well... Rob liefeld.

Marvel allows minor characters that no one will ever care about to naturally develop into positive gay characters.

DC unnaturally forces lipstick lesbian characters into major superhero roles, making them be less believable, but more visible characters.

Wait a second, didn't Rictor take the religious Scottish sorta-werewolf woman's virginity a year or two back?

Boo! Failure to commit!

Marvel is actually much when it comes to LGBT issues then DC.
As DC just uses Lesbian characters to turn on Straight guys and gain readers, but the way they actually treat LGBT people is pretty bad, Most Gay characters in DC tend to get killed in terrible ways or humiliated and made out to be terrible people.

Marvel tends to portray their gays characters as PEOPLE, normal people just like all the other characters, and Northstar isn't famous but he does have plenty of panel-time (BTW he was killed but then brought back to life then killed then brought back to life but claimed to be dead so he could live in Canada again or some ridiculous thing like that)

Plus he was the most popular character from the comic he originated from, Some Canadian comic I forgot the name of(Air...Something).

:D Although that panel up there is the first gay kiss in X-men! Northstar has had relationships but he never actually was seen kissing anybody.

Also in Young Avengers I'm pretty sure the Hulking/Wiccan Sub-plot was pretty high-profile, I mean, Wiccan was called Asgardian but he changed his name to Wiccan to avoid gay jokes after he came out(You know, Ass-Gaurdian).

Shatterstar was (at least originally) supposed to be the son of Dazzler and Longshot. I don't know what happened to that storyline, although I do seem to remember Dazzler being pregnant at some point. He is a mutant because he can convert sound to energy (like Dazzler) and shoot it from his swords. Also I think he has a healing factor.

As for Shatterstar's wife, I'm pretty sure it wound up that he had never actually met her.

Lesbians are far less threatening to the largely male, insecure readership of comic books. In fact, they're thrilling. So lesbians don't count as all that progressive to me. Call me when Aquaman is gay.

Colossus has a boyfriend in the ultimate series.

http://www.slycomics.com/

As was already stated by a few people, it's just one of those things that seems to really make sense.

As for Midnighter and Apollo, they're the highest of profile (in their own universe of course)a loving, married couple, and they even had an adopted daughter by the name of Jenny Quantum. Unfortunately for a very long time they (and the entire series) were mishandled to the point of negligence by Wildstorm. The same can be said for Midnighter's solo comic ('Midnighter') which they took a lot of heat for for hardly involving Apollo.

But anyway, not much I can say that hasn't already been said by others. Pleasant news to see! Thanks for the tip.

@ Debrevis:
"Call me when Aquaman is gay."

*ring ring* LOL!

I can't wait to see an all-gay superhero team comic. They could call it "The Fudge Pack".

Uh-oh! That's Marvel's kiss of death. Make gay characters and then kill them off. I'd be careful Shatterstar.

I always get annoyed when people use the, "Well DC uses hot lesbians," argument. Batwoman fights crime, she HAS to stay in perfect shape to do the things she does. Besides, it's not like they shove it down your throats when you're reading it. By the end of her Detective Comics, under the writing skills of Rucka, Batwoman will become an A-list character. The first issue is fantastic! Highly recommend it.

Just wanted to point out that Pied Piper has been a regular supporting character in Flash for... geez, since 1990 or so, and has been openly gay the entire time and both Waid and Johns (and I think BM-L actually wrote the first story) have handled it tastefully for nearly twenty years now.

It's mainly just Judd Winick who does the heavy-handed stuff, since in spite of his worthy wishes to have more minority characters in his books, he can't do it without usage of plot sledgehammers.

Worst example was probably Obsidian, whose being gay made sense, but Alex Ross got pissy about it and nearly had DC reverse it.

@Geoff:

When Winick started writing Exiles, the alternate version of Sunfire he introduced to the team was a lesbian.

Renee Montoya was brought over from the cartoon, but her sexuality was never addressed until she was outed to her squad in Gotham Central. Her sexuality was actually handled really well in that book, as we saw her deal with the reaction from her family, her squad, her partner, and even Two-Face (who had a bit of a thing with her).

As for Batwoman, the issue of the "delay" is discussed in an interview with Greg Rucka on Wordballoon. Basically, the character was supposed to have been introduced slowly and without a major deal made about her sexuality until the Times got a hold of the story. Then DC had to make the best of it (which Didio isn't well known for).

Also, Scandal Savage and Knockout from Secret Six were a very interesting couple until Knockout died in the New God purge.

As for Marvel, their treatment of both Rawhide Kid and Freedom Ring was ridiculous. But both companies have made efforts to be more diverse, and those efforts are to be applauded.

I gotta say, while DC is better at having big profile heroes be gay, it seems like all of those big profile heroes are chicks. It's progress, but it's still kind of crappy; it's like they're afraid to have gay male characters in case they alienate readers.

Marvel isn't much better; they have an awkward tendency to out a character and then kill them off a few issues later. So while I'm delighted that they finally just came out and admitted that Shatterstar was gay for Rictor, I'm kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop on this one.

But at least they're both trying!

Eh, Marvel's made more of their original characters vary in sexuality, and I stand by Colossus being a little more high-profile. And while Detective Comics stars a lesbian...well, bear in mind lesbian in tight black costume starring in DC comics is probably more intelligent marketing to men than it is a matter of "progress." That plus I would hardly call BATWOMAN a "high profile" character. Sure, the comic will probably be good, but that doesn't stop her from being yet another derivative of the Batman name.

@Geoff
Why exactly did Alex Ross have a hissy fit about Obsidian being gay? Did he feel it was wrong for the character, or did he just not want him to be gay? Either way, Alex Ross needs to STFU. Roy and Dani Thomas, who created Obsidian, said they intended for him to be gay. Todd had only two relationships with women, and they were awkward, uncomfortable and short-lived. When he joined the Justice League, Obsidian hinted to best friend/teammate Nuklon that he loved him. I think it took a long time for Todd to deal with his sexuality due to his abusive childhood, inherited schizophrenia and Catholic beliefs.

You know, I thought the future would be when MLKJR's dream of judging someone by their character instead of some category? Instead, we have all these lil' PC jackasses cheering on everytime someone that's gay, that's black, oh, excuse me, African-American and so, like some how this is going to get us karma points or some bullshit? How about a good story instead of some fucking gimmick every time I hear comic news? "Wow, you heard the news?! Marvelous Dicked-Up Comics is making Cumquat Man a transexual narcoleptic nun who fights crime by using an I-Pod phone! She now called Trans-Sister! FUCK YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!"

You know, I thought the future would be when MLKJR's dream of judging someone by their character instead of some category?

Incidentally after reading this article I was flipping through back issues of Curve magazine (lesbian mag) and found an article about post-52 Batwoman, and by association The Question and by contrast Karolina Dean of the Runaways.

The author said Batwoman was being solely promoted on the fact that she's OMG a lesbian! while Renee Montoya had a rather deep pre-hero backstory and was a more fully realized character. I dunno if this has changed since then. She then blasted Brian K. Vaughan for the shitty Karolina/Xavin relationship and lauded Joss Whedon for addressing how shitty it was.

I volunteer at a teen LGBTA group where we have these magazines, and I told the group in general that some superheroes from a 90s X-title they probably never heard of were gay. When I named Shatterstar and Rictor, one kid goes "I knew it!"

Marvel is more natural, while DC just forces the issue?

So, DC creates Batwoman, and Greg Rucka (the man who is also responsible for the Question) and JH Williams take their time, making sure that Batwoman is a fully realized character who just happens to be gay. And, that's forced?

But, Shatterstar and Rictor, two characters that have dated women and have never been hinted at being gay, kiss each other out of the blue. And, that's more natural?

The Pied Piper was a supporting character in the Flash and he was gay. DC has won awards previously from GLADD and other organizations for their portrayel of gay characters in the Flash, Green Lantern, Superman, and Wonder Woman.

None of which was done as a publicity stunt to gain attention for a book.

This is why I can't stand Marvel Zombies.

Like this comment, how gay characters in the DC get killed or humiliated or made out to be bad people. While Marvel doesn't do that with Northstar.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?????????

Northstar was the biggest jerk in the Marvel U. He made Quicksilver look like Captain America in attitude and temperment. Oh, he was also once a terrorist. He was killed, brought back as a weapon for an evil organization, killed again by Wolverine, and brought back as a weapon.

Of course, in typical Mighty Marvel fashion, that all gets wiped out and Northstar is brought back exactly the way he was before all of this started (even participating in sports again.

Yeah, that's real natural.

Somehow I missed all of this, and for that I am bummed.

Intelligent discussion is always refreshing. Personally I think Marvel's more natural inclusion of gays makes more sense and in some ways could help with teaching tollerance to the younger set just as XMEN was created in a time when people were treated differently for their skin color BY LAW.

This is just the evolution of the XMEN = Civil Rights movement.

Sucks all the time the way lesbians are "awesome" but gay men are "wrong" (this is regarding the article and several comments). They did the same shit in Sailor Moon. The male gay couple was dead by the end of the first season (and we won't even talk about how one of them was given a female voice in the dubbed version b/c gays=ew apparently ~eye roll~) and were villians but when the female gay couple pops up not only were they there till the end, they were outer senshi, heroes. Knowing the creator is not too happy about this is sad but more power to any hot boy on boy action, I always say!
None of this matters. LOL They got their shock value and boosted their sales for a couple months I'm sure. Also, being a 90's Marvel reader I'm wondering when Shatterstar started looking like Ron Weasley...