Ugh- Final Crisis. Batman being in that really does take away from Morrison's story- it's similar to Spider-Man where "Yeah, everything is working out, so the secrets will be revealed- Next Year!" UGH!

And, please, no one say something along the lines of, "well, you can always just ignore These stories, and read the ones you want" or, "hey man, no one's holding a Gun to your head to read this" or blah blah blah. I like the idea of Marvel and DC 'Universes' and rules of continuity applying- otherwise, everyone just make graphic novels/"what if"-books and stop annoying fans like me.

Also, I'm Already ignoring Final Crisis until it comes out in TPB- duh! (Womp womp wommmmp)

I don't think that's what the comic is saying at all. Sure, Dr. Hurt CLAIMS to be Thomas Wayne, but Batman immediately shoots that down, and Hurt promptly backs off of the theory, proposing an alternative that he just...is, that there's no theory to explain him.

Besides, he'd ALREADY claimed to be Daddy Wayne, and was ALREADY shot down by Alfred.

....and it's still better than the One More Day rubbish from Spider-Man. Personally, I'm glad the whole Batman RIP thing is over, whatever the Big Reveal - the whole thing has just dragged on too long to have any meaning or impact any more.

Meh.

,,,This is typical Morrisson crap. Same sort of garbage he foisted on readers during his atrocious X-Men run, and just as incoherent and banal as Final Crisis - more accurately referred to as ANAL Crisis, natch. Next thing you know, he'll be doing a Superman story where it's revealed that Jor-El blew up Krypton because Lara was fooling around with the entire Phantom Zone.

Not that it'd actually be something I'd rule out Batman thinking (the man can be just a *bit* of a head case), but...his reason for being is null and void? His mother was killed, and his life WAS ruined because of crime, which he's devoted his life to preventing from happening to others.

I mean, saying that his reason for existence is nullified is like saying the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty is bunk, because at it's core it was just descended from efforts of the superpowers to screw with each other's nuclear programs.

But, y'know, like I said...this *is* Batman. He always was a bit twitchy. ("Cornbread"?)

Perhaps Batman can go to the devil to get this retconned? Hell, the DC universe has plenty of demonic characters roaming about, be it Etrigan or Blue Devil.

A shame that further adventures of Batman have become so stagnant that they resort to going all the way back to the beginning and retcon the hell out of things.

I am pretty sure that Papa Wayne is not the bad guy that was just a laod of BS, and the wearing a mans skin to a party was not literal. He pretended to be that other guy.

I think the thing of it was that

A) It was the devil that was behind it all, so much for Batman a brand new day

or

B) Everything that has ever happened to Batman is because of the Black Glove and with him fighting crime it keeps getting worse so he is causing more harm then good.

Thats what I got out of it. It is still better then FC, it is so behind I forgot about it. All the big sagas this year are crap.

At least X-Force is decent still, oh wait they added 3rd strong dominoe to the team. I am gonna read some Casper Comics, they make those still right?

Rancloth — BW became Batman to avenge his parents' deaths via crime. He learns a petty criminal wasn't responsible, but his own father, thus his life as Batman has been built on a lie. Seems obvious to me.

Sean — If Black Glove isn't revealing that he's Big Daddy Wayne, is there any reveal or shocker at all? Surely Morrison had more in mind than the helicopter crashing silliness, right?

I'm kind of grateful that the story didn't end up having Robin turning against Batman and killing him or Alfred being the criminal mastermind, as rumored. This story is a bad idea, but at least it can be easily retconned and it sounds like this revelation is decidedly ambiguous anyhow. Which kinds of makes the story pointless.

I truly love Morrison's All-Star Superman and his JLA was pretty great, but his recent stuff and his X-Men run really make me think his reputation is overblown.

What the hell did I just read? I dropped out of this story early on,but picked up todays issue. WTF??? It didnt answer shit! Who really is the Black Glove? Whats the deal with Alfred? Batman didnt die or retire or do anything really...he was hanging off a helicopter that crashed into the river. He's done that like,6 million times,and hes never been dead or had to retire before. I'm not happy/pissed or anything....just confused. Can someone PLEASE explain this story in a way that makes sense(or is that possible)?

...can I has it be Terry time now please?

...I already know the answer. :(

--LBD "Nytetrayn"

Thanks Grant Morrison for taking a huge SHIT all over Batman. That's awesome.

Rob: I have to agree with Rancloth, and you too, a little. You are right that BW's life as Batman has been built on a lie, but just because something is built on a lie does not mean that it is invalid or null.

Even if Jesus was not God's son, Catholicism is still a real religion. Marriages of convenience are still marriages. Philanthropic donations still help people even if they are motivated by the tax deduction that they come with, and not a true desire to help people.

Similarly, Batman is still a good guy who helped a lot of people, took a lot of criminals off the street, and stood as a symbol for justice. These things are still true, and are still part of the meaning of Batman, regardless of what his father was.

Seriously....why wont any of you people help me? What was the POINT of all this? What was Morrison trying to say? There is a point,isnt there? Should the last panel of this book have featured Morrison in a Batman costume attempting once again to break the fourth wall by thrusting his scottish manhood in our faces in an attempt to skull-fuck the audience? WHY DID THIS HAPPEN????? WHATS GOING ON?????

Sounds like a Superboy Reality Punch is in order!

Morrison did something similar with Owlman (Batman;s Evil reflection) and Thomas Wayne senior in JLA Earth 2. Morrison seems to have a hate on Thomas Wayne. Actually I was re-reading some of Morrison's JLA work with Darkseid and noticed how much of it is reflected in Final Crisis. Seems like he is running out of ideas...

I think that the Black Glove isn't really Dr Wayne, he just said that to mess with Bruce's head.

Though it doesn't work, obviously.

The fact that Didio said that Bruce was going to come back as Batman kind of lessened the impact of this though, even though logically he was going to return as Batman anyway after DC's next Bat-storyline 'Battle of the Cowl'.

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/25/holy-caskets-is-batman-destined-for-death/

Comic Book Resources is saying that Doctor Hurt/Black Glove was actually the Devil, and the Thomas Wayne thing was BS. I haven't read the issue myself, but there seems to be a lot of confusion over the ending.

Personally, I thought the whole "Zur-en-Arrh" thing was supposed to be the word "surrender", not what it actually turned out to be (I won't spoil it, but it's pretty lame).

I have the first couple issues of the story, but honestly I stopped reading it because I couldn't stand Tony Daniel's god-awful shitty artwork.

What?, no. It wasn't very clear but despite Hurt's claims to be Thomas Wayne, Bruce said he was Mangrove Pierce, one of the guys in the black glove movie.

Also, Alfred told Hurt that he knew he was not Thomas Wayne when they were torturing him in the batcave.

i don't see batman being dead

he's probably survived helicopter crashes before

the whole story was a lead up to his supposed death and i didn't see one, kinda lame

mneh, morrison is pretty much insane(in a good way) when it comes to writing though so who knows what's happening next

execpt for issue 842, we all know that is going to happen, in about 4 weeks

It sounds for the first time in... well, forever Batman will finally be an interesting character and have an actual reason for being a whiny, emo bitch.

I've never liked Batman. He's got all the money in the world and all the women he could ever want. He chooses to be a whiny baby. Yes, his parents died. But Peter Parker's uncle was killed (who was just the same as a father to him) AND Peter was pretty much directly responsible for it. Peter is crapped on every day of his life and he still manages to crack jokes and look on the bright side.

If this story finally gives Batman some depth then I'm all for it.

On a positive note, Martha Wayne sounds like the kinda chick I'd like to party with.

Druken orgy? Niiiiice.

"His mother was killed, and his life WAS ruined because of crime, which he's devoted his life to preventing from happening to others."
Not that he does a good job of it, if the number of innocents murdered by his rogue's gallery are anything to go by. Let him talk about preventing crime to a kid whose own parents were murdered by the Joker due to Batman's own actions...

Seems Lil morris had some sort of idea,and they read too much of the DC boards and kept changing dates and altering the story.

Truth be told I'm left withe the underwhelming sensation of "Filler Episode".
Took out all the fun from the joker too...

Maybe DC should stop trying to frantically create an in-the-house-AlanMoore clone?

Umm, when I read it, it didn't seem like the whole family thing was true. After both Alfred and Bruce told Hurt, "You're not Thomas Wayne," it seems like that's true. That whole thing seemed like a thing to get Bruce to go off the deep end. Not only that, but Dr. Hurt threatened to release all this "information" to the public if Batman didn't serve the Black Glove, which seems to imply that it's only a false claim done to embarrass Bruce.

@ Jeremy

Peter was a teenager when it happened. Bruce was am 8 year-old child when it happened, directly in front of his eyes. The fact that Batman is a dark and serious is something that should be expected from a character like that.

Oh and don't compare Batman and Spider-man stories for "depth". Spider-man stories are terrible compared to Batman comics, even when Grant Morrison is writing them. If you want depth in the Batman character, read Year One, for example.

And still, Peter is always complaining about how tough his life is, even when he still had the supermodel girlfriend.

C'mon he quits as spiderman every six months.

Xiphactinus audax——Hey, I sure hear that, dude. I didn't say he was doing a really GOOD job at preventing crime, especially when he could reduce the percentage of the world's murder rate by at least a digit just by taking the karmic bullet himself by killing or brain-wiping (with a Bat-orbitoclast, at least) most of the half-dozen super psychos he has under his mercy on a regular basis. But he is honestly making an effort...kinda like Ed Wood. Terrible director, but you can't say he wasn't TRYING to make good movies. As opposed to, say, Uwe Boll. :)

And, technically, even if the exact circumstances of his parents death were the conspiracy-born lie as noted above, his reason for being is only *half* a lie...arguably, the only difference is that *two* criminals and *one* victim were involved. The motivations turn out to be different than mere street crime gone bad, but I don't think Bats limited himself to fighting one particular brand of crime, to begin with.

Bruce Wayne, Consulting Detective?

...Spoon said:
What?, no. It wasn't very clear but despite Hurt's claims to be Thomas Wayne, Bruce said he was Mangrove Pierce, one of the guys in the black glove movie.
...

That's what I got too - are people really confused about this?... or just stupid?

Amazing! Batman knows how to go out with a bang!

I don't know... why couldn't this Simon Hurt-Thomas Wayne guy just be another return of Hugo Strange? I could at least accept that...

Batman can just ask Mephisto to help him with this.

NeoXorn: I just lol'd, hard.

Also, I'm pretty glad I don't read DC comics.

Ok, here's the thing.... Don't we see at the very beginning of this story Batman stating that he'll never die? And the next page is like, six months earlier, right? I'm guessing that we all thought that the story would be wrapped up in six parts, but little did we know....

...Mark my words, kids. When/if Grant really ties this into Anal Crisis, we'll find the Black Mask was one of Desaad's human hosts. Only then would this mess make one iota of sense.